Post by iris89 on Jan 24, 2009 16:14:30 GMT -5
Reality By Anti-War Newspaper Man and Comments on Root Cause in Gaza:
One newspaper sent to me by an associate in West Palm Beach says it all with regard to Israel’s Just War in Gaza written by a deputy editorial editor that was NOT for the war, but upon examination saw Israel could not reasonably wait.
“When Abe Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League, visited ‘The Post’ [[The Palm Beach Post, newspaper]] this month I (Jac Wilder VerSteeg, deputy editorisl editor of ‘The Palm Beach Post) argued that Israel had invaded Gaza too early and should have pursued Diplomacy for as long as necessary.
Mr. Foxman argued (pounding on the table) that “there’s never a good time,” but that “this is a just war” because Israel had been under relentless attack from Hamas rockets – 7,000 since 2005 – and Hamas continues to seek Israel’s destruction.
I countered that Hamas’ rockets had done minimal damage compared with the devastation and loss of life that Israel visited on Gaza, and that Hamas’ intentions don’t matter because the organization doesn’t have the capability to destroy Israel. Mr. Foxman replied that it would be crazy for Israel to wait until Hamas improves its own destructive capabilities. If Israel leaves Hamas alone now, over time that approach will result only in more death and destruction on both sides.
Mr. Foxman and I have had friendly but similarly heated disagreements over the years. I have to say, on reflection, that he prevailed this time. At least, I hope it turns out that he prevailed. Whether Mr. Foxman really was right depends on what happens down the road in Gaza.
The deeper context for our exchange was a discussion of civilian casualties. Knowing that any attack of Gaza would result in hundreds of civilian deaths, how could Israel go ahead when the provocation was Hamas rockets that did not kill hundreds of Israelis? Why attack now? [[note; Hamas was the one who lit the proverbial fuse for violence and NOT Israel.]]
I was resisting being dragged into a utilitarian view of civilian deaths: If killing 10 civilians today will save 100 tomorrow, it is better to kill the 10 today.
But that kind of moral accounting is even less reliable than attempts to make banks account for what they’ve done with the billions in bailout money. The dead never reap the benefits of their deaths, and it’s hard to show that the living do, either.
A utilitarian view of civilian deaths makes it far too easy for the violently inclined to justify havoc. We have to do what we’re doing for the sake of our own people (whose cause is just) and truth be told, also for the sake of the innocent among those we are forced to attack. Attacking them, don’t you see, is a favor.
In short, a utilitarian justification for was is subject savage abuse. But as imperfect and potentially immoral as it is, I am dragged to that viewpoint.
My argument that Israel should have waited relies on there being a reasonable expectation that diplomacy could bring Hamas to the negotiating table. There has been no such reasonable expectation. The time for Palestinian peacemaking to emerge was in August 2005 after Israel UNILATERALLY withdrawal from Gaza. That withdrawal was Israel’s good-faith bid to break the cycle. Hamas responded instead by driving out rival Fatah and then, after taking sole control in mid-2007, ratcheting up attacks against Israel. Gaza could be on a different path today if Hamas had responded with a commitment to build a society and a thriving economy. Hamas would blame Israel’s continuing choke-hold on access to Gaza. Did Hamas really thing rockets would break that hold faster than a demonstrated commitment to peaceful development? [[This belief would be plain insanity.]]
I don’t like arriving at this point. Killing civilians is immoral even if done to prevent a greater sin. There always is the danger that the greater sin was a self-serving delusion or is not prevented.
Still, I am dragged to this uncomfortable point not by Mr. Foxman but by Hamas. Hamas, which unlike Israel intentionally targets civilians, had demonstrated that the status quo never could lead to peace and probably would lead to greater destruction. The question now facing those of us taking the utilitarian view is: Did Israel’s invasion – and the deaths of all those civilians – break Hamas’ power and make PEACE possible?
Whether Israel has just completed a just war depends on the answer.” [source – “Just war” in Gaza? In the Saturday, January 24, 2009, The Palm Beach Post (newspaper), by Jac Wilder VerSeeg, deputy editorial page editor whose e-mail address is jac_versteeg@pbpost.com]
Now what is the real cause of the war?
FIRST, The question should NOT be who broke the cease fire, but that of peace. All should pursue peace and love and NOT violence and hate.
SECOND, But many are just fooling themselves, the real problem is religious leaders as it is not what either the Bible or the Bible takeoff the Qur'an actually say, but how religious leaders be they priest and/or imams or muftis or what ever teach the people is the interpretation of what is written either in the Bible or the Bible takeoff the Qur'an that matters and governs actions. It matters not what the Bible and/or the Bible takeoff really say. People go by what they are taught by their religious leaders. Take the genocide committed by the Roman Catholic Church at the direction of their supreme religious leader, the pope, [[Pope Innocent III genocide against the Cathars]] what mattered was not that the Bible clearly said at Exodus 20:13, "Thou shalt not kill." (Authorized King James Bible; AV), but what their religious leaders told them. Therefore, it is the religion at fault, irregardless of what their particular holy book, be it the Bible or the Bible takeoff the Qur'an may say. Neither is so called Christianity or in Islam are most individuals actions really governed in any way by what their particular holy book really says, but they are governed by the interpretation of their religious leaders. Thus, knowing this reality, one would be either just plain stupid and/or dumb to even bother looking at a particular religion's holy book and expect the members would conform to it. Take the Rig Vede and find me for example a Hindu actually conforming to it instead of the interpretation given to it by his religious leaders, like looking for a needle in the haystack per K.S. Lal, India's greatest historian.
Hamas is NOT seeking peace as clearly shown by Hamas' denial of the right of the Israelites to exist; whereas, Israel never has denied the right of the Palestines to existence. Nor has Israel ever used civilians as human shields or suicide bombers. Both of these practices show a clear disregard for peace and love of life and fellow man. Both the Ishmaelites - Hamas, and the Hebrews - Israelites should be walking with the TRUE GOD as did Abraham, their common ancestor, but neither are.
For details, go to, religioustruths.proboards59.com/
An Educational Referral Forum and start learning the ways of peace and reality. If there are any questions or you want to discuss, PM me at this forum.
To learn more, check out the following:
[1] religioustruths.proboards59.com/ An Educational Referral Forum
[2] www.network54.com/Forum/403209 A Forum Devoted to Exposing The False Religion of Islam
[3] jude3.proboards92.com/ A Free-Speech Forum For All
[4] www.freewebs.com/iris_the_preacher My web site.
Your Friend in Christ Iris89
One newspaper sent to me by an associate in West Palm Beach says it all with regard to Israel’s Just War in Gaza written by a deputy editorial editor that was NOT for the war, but upon examination saw Israel could not reasonably wait.
“When Abe Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League, visited ‘The Post’ [[The Palm Beach Post, newspaper]] this month I (Jac Wilder VerSteeg, deputy editorisl editor of ‘The Palm Beach Post) argued that Israel had invaded Gaza too early and should have pursued Diplomacy for as long as necessary.
Mr. Foxman argued (pounding on the table) that “there’s never a good time,” but that “this is a just war” because Israel had been under relentless attack from Hamas rockets – 7,000 since 2005 – and Hamas continues to seek Israel’s destruction.
I countered that Hamas’ rockets had done minimal damage compared with the devastation and loss of life that Israel visited on Gaza, and that Hamas’ intentions don’t matter because the organization doesn’t have the capability to destroy Israel. Mr. Foxman replied that it would be crazy for Israel to wait until Hamas improves its own destructive capabilities. If Israel leaves Hamas alone now, over time that approach will result only in more death and destruction on both sides.
Mr. Foxman and I have had friendly but similarly heated disagreements over the years. I have to say, on reflection, that he prevailed this time. At least, I hope it turns out that he prevailed. Whether Mr. Foxman really was right depends on what happens down the road in Gaza.
The deeper context for our exchange was a discussion of civilian casualties. Knowing that any attack of Gaza would result in hundreds of civilian deaths, how could Israel go ahead when the provocation was Hamas rockets that did not kill hundreds of Israelis? Why attack now? [[note; Hamas was the one who lit the proverbial fuse for violence and NOT Israel.]]
I was resisting being dragged into a utilitarian view of civilian deaths: If killing 10 civilians today will save 100 tomorrow, it is better to kill the 10 today.
But that kind of moral accounting is even less reliable than attempts to make banks account for what they’ve done with the billions in bailout money. The dead never reap the benefits of their deaths, and it’s hard to show that the living do, either.
A utilitarian view of civilian deaths makes it far too easy for the violently inclined to justify havoc. We have to do what we’re doing for the sake of our own people (whose cause is just) and truth be told, also for the sake of the innocent among those we are forced to attack. Attacking them, don’t you see, is a favor.
In short, a utilitarian justification for was is subject savage abuse. But as imperfect and potentially immoral as it is, I am dragged to that viewpoint.
My argument that Israel should have waited relies on there being a reasonable expectation that diplomacy could bring Hamas to the negotiating table. There has been no such reasonable expectation. The time for Palestinian peacemaking to emerge was in August 2005 after Israel UNILATERALLY withdrawal from Gaza. That withdrawal was Israel’s good-faith bid to break the cycle. Hamas responded instead by driving out rival Fatah and then, after taking sole control in mid-2007, ratcheting up attacks against Israel. Gaza could be on a different path today if Hamas had responded with a commitment to build a society and a thriving economy. Hamas would blame Israel’s continuing choke-hold on access to Gaza. Did Hamas really thing rockets would break that hold faster than a demonstrated commitment to peaceful development? [[This belief would be plain insanity.]]
I don’t like arriving at this point. Killing civilians is immoral even if done to prevent a greater sin. There always is the danger that the greater sin was a self-serving delusion or is not prevented.
Still, I am dragged to this uncomfortable point not by Mr. Foxman but by Hamas. Hamas, which unlike Israel intentionally targets civilians, had demonstrated that the status quo never could lead to peace and probably would lead to greater destruction. The question now facing those of us taking the utilitarian view is: Did Israel’s invasion – and the deaths of all those civilians – break Hamas’ power and make PEACE possible?
Whether Israel has just completed a just war depends on the answer.” [source – “Just war” in Gaza? In the Saturday, January 24, 2009, The Palm Beach Post (newspaper), by Jac Wilder VerSeeg, deputy editorial page editor whose e-mail address is jac_versteeg@pbpost.com]
Now what is the real cause of the war?
FIRST, The question should NOT be who broke the cease fire, but that of peace. All should pursue peace and love and NOT violence and hate.
SECOND, But many are just fooling themselves, the real problem is religious leaders as it is not what either the Bible or the Bible takeoff the Qur'an actually say, but how religious leaders be they priest and/or imams or muftis or what ever teach the people is the interpretation of what is written either in the Bible or the Bible takeoff the Qur'an that matters and governs actions. It matters not what the Bible and/or the Bible takeoff really say. People go by what they are taught by their religious leaders. Take the genocide committed by the Roman Catholic Church at the direction of their supreme religious leader, the pope, [[Pope Innocent III genocide against the Cathars]] what mattered was not that the Bible clearly said at Exodus 20:13, "Thou shalt not kill." (Authorized King James Bible; AV), but what their religious leaders told them. Therefore, it is the religion at fault, irregardless of what their particular holy book, be it the Bible or the Bible takeoff the Qur'an may say. Neither is so called Christianity or in Islam are most individuals actions really governed in any way by what their particular holy book really says, but they are governed by the interpretation of their religious leaders. Thus, knowing this reality, one would be either just plain stupid and/or dumb to even bother looking at a particular religion's holy book and expect the members would conform to it. Take the Rig Vede and find me for example a Hindu actually conforming to it instead of the interpretation given to it by his religious leaders, like looking for a needle in the haystack per K.S. Lal, India's greatest historian.
Hamas is NOT seeking peace as clearly shown by Hamas' denial of the right of the Israelites to exist; whereas, Israel never has denied the right of the Palestines to existence. Nor has Israel ever used civilians as human shields or suicide bombers. Both of these practices show a clear disregard for peace and love of life and fellow man. Both the Ishmaelites - Hamas, and the Hebrews - Israelites should be walking with the TRUE GOD as did Abraham, their common ancestor, but neither are.
For details, go to, religioustruths.proboards59.com/
An Educational Referral Forum and start learning the ways of peace and reality. If there are any questions or you want to discuss, PM me at this forum.
To learn more, check out the following:
[1] religioustruths.proboards59.com/ An Educational Referral Forum
[2] www.network54.com/Forum/403209 A Forum Devoted to Exposing The False Religion of Islam
[3] jude3.proboards92.com/ A Free-Speech Forum For All
[4] www.freewebs.com/iris_the_preacher My web site.
Your Friend in Christ Iris89