Post by Truth Seaker on Jan 13, 2006 7:59:28 GMT -5
DISCOURSE ON JESUS NOT JEHOVAH HIS FATHER:
Here is some short simple logic that proves beyond doubt that Jesus (Yeshua) Christ in NOT Jehovah (YHWH) of the old testament as some claim, but his Son as stated over 40 times in the Word of God (YHWH), the Bible:
Matthew 24:36 proves he is not Jehovah (YHWH). Its quite simple, Jesus (Yeshua) is the Son of God (YHWH) and can NOT be God (YHWH) as shown by his own words at Matthew 24:36, clearly shows that no man, and even Jesus (Yeshua), the Son of God (YHWH), knows the hour for God's (YHWH's) judgment on this earth to come, "But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father". (American Standard Version; ASV). If he were God (YHWH) as some wrongly claim he would of course know the date for the culmination of the end times.
And this fact that Jesus (Yeshua) and Jehovah (YHWH), his Father (YHWH) are two distinct entities is further testified to at Matthew 26:52-56 as follows,"Then saith Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into its place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 53 Or thinkest thou that I cannot beseech my Father, and he shall even now send me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 How then should the scriptures be fulfilled that thus it must be? 55 In that hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a robber with swords and staves to seize me? I sat daily in the temple teaching, and ye took me not. 56 But all this is come to pass, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples left him, and fled. " (ASV) where Jesus (Yeshua) in his own words clearly says, "Or thinkest thou that I cannot beseech my Father, and he shall even now send me more than twelve legions of angels?" clearly showing his Father (YHWH) to be separate and apart from his Father (YHWH).
Or where he clearly shows his Father (YHWH) as being greater than himself at John 14:28, "Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I."(AVS), and this statement would definately NOT be so if they were one and the same.
Or where the Father (YHWH) gives authority over all except himself to Jesus (Yeshua) at 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, " For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming. 24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 27 For, He put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject all things unto him. 28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.". Now pay particular attention to verse 27 where it says, "For, He put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject all things unto him." which would be ridiculas and impossible if they were one and the same; for this scripture to be so they would have to be two separate entities.
Or 1 Corinthians 11:3 where the chain-of-authority is shown as, "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."(ASV). Now if they were one and the same, the statement, "and the head of Christ is God." would be impossible.
Or consider Luke 3:21-23, " Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that, Jesus also having been baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. 23 And Jesus himself, when he began [to teach], was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the [son] of Heli,"(ASV), which clearly shows Jesus' (Yeshua's) Father, God (YHWH) letting his Holy Spirit or active force come down on his beloved Son, Jesus (Yeshua) and anoint him, once more showing them as two distinct entities.
Or consider John 20:17,"Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God."(ASV) which clearly shows the Son, Jesus (Yeshua) and the Father (YHWH), Jehovah as two distince and separate individuals.
Or consider when Jesus (Yeshua) prayed to his Father (YHWH) at John 17:1-5, "These things spake Jesus; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that the son may glorify thee: 2 even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life. 3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, [even] Jesus Christ. 4 I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
"(ASV); which shows him praying to his Father (YHWH) which would have been impossible if they, the Son, Jesus (Yeshua) and the Father, Jehovah (YHWH), were the same individual.
Or John 5:19, "Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner."(ASV) where Jesus (Yeshua) clearly testifies that he, the Son, can "do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing" which leaves no doubt that Jesus (Yeshua) and Jehovah (YHWH), the Father (YHWH) are indeed two separate individuals.
One individual once said, "Some have a problem dealing with what is written concerning the Son and the fact that the NT writers call Him God, Paul calling Him the GREAT God and Savior." which is an incorrect statement meant to cover the fact of their own error; the fact is that the New Testament writers NEVER referred to Jesus (Yeshua) as Almighty God (YHWH), but as the Son of God (YHWH) in over 40 different places. However, some translators mistranslated, for example John 1:1, to make it seem like he was God (YHWH), but a close examination of their mistranslation of John 1:1 clearly shows there is a definite problem as their mistranslation creates an impossible situation. Let's look at John 1:1 and see why this is the case, "In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God." (Douay Rheims Catholic Bible; DRCB). Now this first says [in the first part of the translational construct] that the "Word was with God," and then [in the second part of the translational construct] that the "Word was God." Obviously you CAN NOT BE BOTH WITH SOMEONE AND BE THAT SOMEONE. This is both impossible and absolutely ridiculas at the same time, and this all the more so when you consider John 1:2, "The same was in the beginning with God." (DRCB).
Thus you can easily see there is something very wrong with this translation and it could IN NO WAY be the thoughts of the original writer, and of course you would be correct. But now what were the thoughts of the original writer? The New English Bible (NEB) captures the thoughts of the original writer as follows for John 1:1-3, "When all things began, the Word already was. The Word dwelt with God, and what God was, the Word was. The Word, then, was with God at the beginning, and through him all things came to be; no single thing was created without him." (The New English Bible; NEB) or in the translation by the renown American translator, An American Translation," by Dr. Edgar J. Goodspeed - transltr, J. M. Powis Smith - transltr. Publisher: University of Chicago Press, "IN THE beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine. It was he that was with God in the beginning. Everything came into existence through him, and apart from him nothing came to be." (An American Translation; AAT). Both clearly showing that he was what his father was a diety or divine; but clearly not on the same level with his Father (YHWH) since as he himself said at John 14:28, " You have heard that I said to you: I go away, and I come unto you. If you loved me you would indeed be glad, because I go to the Father: for the Father is greater than I." (DRCB); thus no violation of Exodus 20:3 against polytheism, "Thou shalt not have strange gods before me." (DRCB). And as God's (YHWH's) he showed where worship should be directed in Matthew 4:10 when he was giving an answer to the Devil on worship and to whom it should be given, "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." (American Standard Version; ASV), and this is in keeping with Isaiah 42:8, "I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images." (ASV). Jesus (Yeshua) even showed that his own glory was subordinate to his Father's (YHWH's) and dependent on his Father (YHWH) at John 17:1-5, "These things spake Jesus; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that the son may glorify thee: 2 even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life. 3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, [even] Jesus Christ. 4 I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." (ASV). So we can clearly see that Jesus (Yeshua) and His Father (YHWH) must be two separate and distinct individuals as there is NO POSSIBLE WAY THEY COULD BE ONE INDIVIDUAL, since one is dependent on the other for his power, this being the Son, Jesus (Yeshua) who is dependent on his Father (YHWH) who is greater than he is.
Here is some short simple logic that proves beyond doubt that Jesus (Yeshua) Christ in NOT Jehovah (YHWH) of the old testament as some claim, but his Son as stated over 40 times in the Word of God (YHWH), the Bible:
Matthew 24:36 proves he is not Jehovah (YHWH). Its quite simple, Jesus (Yeshua) is the Son of God (YHWH) and can NOT be God (YHWH) as shown by his own words at Matthew 24:36, clearly shows that no man, and even Jesus (Yeshua), the Son of God (YHWH), knows the hour for God's (YHWH's) judgment on this earth to come, "But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father". (American Standard Version; ASV). If he were God (YHWH) as some wrongly claim he would of course know the date for the culmination of the end times.
And this fact that Jesus (Yeshua) and Jehovah (YHWH), his Father (YHWH) are two distinct entities is further testified to at Matthew 26:52-56 as follows,"Then saith Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into its place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 53 Or thinkest thou that I cannot beseech my Father, and he shall even now send me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 How then should the scriptures be fulfilled that thus it must be? 55 In that hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a robber with swords and staves to seize me? I sat daily in the temple teaching, and ye took me not. 56 But all this is come to pass, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples left him, and fled. " (ASV) where Jesus (Yeshua) in his own words clearly says, "Or thinkest thou that I cannot beseech my Father, and he shall even now send me more than twelve legions of angels?" clearly showing his Father (YHWH) to be separate and apart from his Father (YHWH).
Or where he clearly shows his Father (YHWH) as being greater than himself at John 14:28, "Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I."(AVS), and this statement would definately NOT be so if they were one and the same.
Or where the Father (YHWH) gives authority over all except himself to Jesus (Yeshua) at 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, " For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming. 24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 27 For, He put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject all things unto him. 28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.". Now pay particular attention to verse 27 where it says, "For, He put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject all things unto him." which would be ridiculas and impossible if they were one and the same; for this scripture to be so they would have to be two separate entities.
Or 1 Corinthians 11:3 where the chain-of-authority is shown as, "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."(ASV). Now if they were one and the same, the statement, "and the head of Christ is God." would be impossible.
Or consider Luke 3:21-23, " Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that, Jesus also having been baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. 23 And Jesus himself, when he began [to teach], was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the [son] of Heli,"(ASV), which clearly shows Jesus' (Yeshua's) Father, God (YHWH) letting his Holy Spirit or active force come down on his beloved Son, Jesus (Yeshua) and anoint him, once more showing them as two distinct entities.
Or consider John 20:17,"Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God."(ASV) which clearly shows the Son, Jesus (Yeshua) and the Father (YHWH), Jehovah as two distince and separate individuals.
Or consider when Jesus (Yeshua) prayed to his Father (YHWH) at John 17:1-5, "These things spake Jesus; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that the son may glorify thee: 2 even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life. 3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, [even] Jesus Christ. 4 I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
"(ASV); which shows him praying to his Father (YHWH) which would have been impossible if they, the Son, Jesus (Yeshua) and the Father, Jehovah (YHWH), were the same individual.
Or John 5:19, "Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner."(ASV) where Jesus (Yeshua) clearly testifies that he, the Son, can "do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing" which leaves no doubt that Jesus (Yeshua) and Jehovah (YHWH), the Father (YHWH) are indeed two separate individuals.
One individual once said, "Some have a problem dealing with what is written concerning the Son and the fact that the NT writers call Him God, Paul calling Him the GREAT God and Savior." which is an incorrect statement meant to cover the fact of their own error; the fact is that the New Testament writers NEVER referred to Jesus (Yeshua) as Almighty God (YHWH), but as the Son of God (YHWH) in over 40 different places. However, some translators mistranslated, for example John 1:1, to make it seem like he was God (YHWH), but a close examination of their mistranslation of John 1:1 clearly shows there is a definite problem as their mistranslation creates an impossible situation. Let's look at John 1:1 and see why this is the case, "In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God." (Douay Rheims Catholic Bible; DRCB). Now this first says [in the first part of the translational construct] that the "Word was with God," and then [in the second part of the translational construct] that the "Word was God." Obviously you CAN NOT BE BOTH WITH SOMEONE AND BE THAT SOMEONE. This is both impossible and absolutely ridiculas at the same time, and this all the more so when you consider John 1:2, "The same was in the beginning with God." (DRCB).
Thus you can easily see there is something very wrong with this translation and it could IN NO WAY be the thoughts of the original writer, and of course you would be correct. But now what were the thoughts of the original writer? The New English Bible (NEB) captures the thoughts of the original writer as follows for John 1:1-3, "When all things began, the Word already was. The Word dwelt with God, and what God was, the Word was. The Word, then, was with God at the beginning, and through him all things came to be; no single thing was created without him." (The New English Bible; NEB) or in the translation by the renown American translator, An American Translation," by Dr. Edgar J. Goodspeed - transltr, J. M. Powis Smith - transltr. Publisher: University of Chicago Press, "IN THE beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine. It was he that was with God in the beginning. Everything came into existence through him, and apart from him nothing came to be." (An American Translation; AAT). Both clearly showing that he was what his father was a diety or divine; but clearly not on the same level with his Father (YHWH) since as he himself said at John 14:28, " You have heard that I said to you: I go away, and I come unto you. If you loved me you would indeed be glad, because I go to the Father: for the Father is greater than I." (DRCB); thus no violation of Exodus 20:3 against polytheism, "Thou shalt not have strange gods before me." (DRCB). And as God's (YHWH's) he showed where worship should be directed in Matthew 4:10 when he was giving an answer to the Devil on worship and to whom it should be given, "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." (American Standard Version; ASV), and this is in keeping with Isaiah 42:8, "I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images." (ASV). Jesus (Yeshua) even showed that his own glory was subordinate to his Father's (YHWH's) and dependent on his Father (YHWH) at John 17:1-5, "These things spake Jesus; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that the son may glorify thee: 2 even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life. 3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, [even] Jesus Christ. 4 I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." (ASV). So we can clearly see that Jesus (Yeshua) and His Father (YHWH) must be two separate and distinct individuals as there is NO POSSIBLE WAY THEY COULD BE ONE INDIVIDUAL, since one is dependent on the other for his power, this being the Son, Jesus (Yeshua) who is dependent on his Father (YHWH) who is greater than he is.