Post by iris89 on Apr 16, 2006 16:47:11 GMT -5
Those That Know The Least About The Bible Make Grandiose Claims Of Error Where There is None:
It is strange, but true. Those who know little about the Bible and comprehend even less make grandiose claims of error in the Bible where clearly there is no error. A good example is one individual's faulty understanding of Genesis 32:24-29. Let's look at how he went wrong.
FIRST, You are missing the point somehow. You must have an understanding of ancient customs to have an understanding of some Bible passages, and you lack this understanding. In ancient times when someone performed a task of any kind for another as an agent, the task was attributed to the one for whom he was performing the task. This is what is known as the Biblical Law of Agencies and correspondence with the modern legal concept of 'Power of Attorney.' This should be self evident to anyone if they stop and reason on the scripture where an angel or Jesus (Yeshua), the Isa, is performing a task as agent for the true God (YHWH) of Abraham. Common sense should tell you that in the instance of Genesis 32:24-29, "And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there." (Authorized King James Bible; AV) which renders it that he wrestled with a man,
And the American Standard (ASV) renders it similar as follows, "And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was strained, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there." (American Standard Version; ASV). Which likewise renders it that he wrestled with a man.
And the New World Translation (NWT) renders it as follows, "24 Finally Jacob was left by himself. Then a man began to grapple with him until the dawn ascended. 25 When he got to see that he had not prevailed over him, then he touched the socket of his thigh joint; and the socket of Jacob's thigh joint got out of place during his grappling with him. 26 After that he said: "Let me go, for the dawn has ascended." To this he said: "I am not going to let you go until you first bless me." 27 So he said to him: "What is your name?" to which he said: "Jacob." 28 Then he said: "Your name will no longer be called Jacob but Israel, for you have contended with God and with men so that you at last prevailed." 29 In turn Jacob inquired and said: "Tell me, please, your name." However, he said: "Why is it that you inquire for my name?" With that he blessed him there." (New World Translation, NWT). Which likewise renders it that he wrestled with a man.
And English Standard Version (ESV) renders it as follows, "And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. 25 When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. 26 Then he said, Let me go, for the day has broken. But Jacob said, I will not let you go unless you bless me. 27 And he said to him, What is your name? And he said, Jacob. 28 Then he said, Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed. 29 Then Jacob asked him, Please tell me your name. But he said, Why is it that you ask my name? And there he blessed him." (English Standard Version; ESV). Which likewise renders it that he wrestled with a man.
And The New English Bible (NEB) renders it as follows, "So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him there till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not throw Jacob, he struch him in the hollow of his thigh, so that Jacob's hip was dislocated as they wrestled. The man said, 'let me go for day is breaking', but Jacob replied, 'I will not let you go unless you bless me.' He said to Jacob, 'What is your name?', and he answered, 'Jacob.' The man said, 'Your name shall no longer be jacob, but Israel, because you strove with God and with men, and prevailed." Jacob said, 'Tell me, I pray, your name.' He replied, 'Why do you ask my name?', bet he have him his blessing there." (The New English Bible; NEB) Which likewise renders it that he wrestled with a man.
Now this leads to the question that causes some who lack understanding and comprehension of the Bible and of the Biblical Law of Agencies which is similar to the modern legal concept of 'Power of Attorney' where one acts as the agent for another, and the acts he/she performs are said to have been done by the principle. In the case at hand, what we have is a materialized angel acting as the agent of the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, so under the Biblical Law of Agencies it can be said that Jacob "strove with God and with men."
This same principle is clearly shown in my Commentary on John 12:41 These things said Isaiah, because he saw his glory; and he spake of him. (New American Standard Version; NASB)
To understand this scripture fully we must have a working understanding of the Jewish Law of Agencies which is basically as follows, "Jesus (Yeshua) was God's (YHWH's) appointed agent in accordance with the 'Biblical law of agency' described as, "Scripture mentions something being done by Person A, whilst another mentions it being done by Person B. This is best understood when we grasp the Schaliach Principle, or the Jewish Law of Agency, which is expressed in the dictum, "A person's agent is regarded as the person himself." Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principle." (The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, R.J.Z. Werblowski and Geoffrey Wigoder).
We, therefore, must understand this law of agencies since this will enhance our understanding of many key texts, such as why the Judges and angels were called "God" (Ex. 21:6; 22:8; Ps. 8:5; 82:1). Many more instances could be provided, but brevity is in order here. John 8:54 drives this law of agency home, "Jesus answered, 'If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God." (Confraternity Edition of The New Testament; CENTN), showing that Jesus (Yeshua) was his Father's (YHWH's) agent, and he sought not his own glory, but glory from his Father (YHWH). Therefore, Jesus (Yeshua) could say as he did at John 11:40, "Jesus said to her, 'Have I not told thee that if thou believe thou shalt behold the glory of God?'" (CETNT). Even Satan the Devil recognized this, Jesus (Yeshua), as God's (YHWH's) agent, 2 Corinthians 4:4, "In their case, the god of this world has blinded their unbelieving minds, that they should not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (CETNT); thus he is trying to blind the minds of the unbelieving to prevent them from recognizing this truth. We must be constantly on guard against the imaginations of Satan the Devil and his attempts to get all men to believe God (YHWH) dishonoring doctrines of men such as the Duality and the Trinity and be noble like the Beroeans, Acts 17:11, "Now these were of a nobler character than those of Thessalonica and they received the word with great eagerness, studying the Scriptures every day to see whether these things were so." (CETNT). Thus, it is obvious that Jesus (Yeshua) and His Father, Almighty God (YHWH) are two distinct entities or beings and NOT one and the same and/or different manifestations of the same being, and that His Father (YHWH) is NOT co-equa but greates as Jesus (Yeshua) himself said at John 14:28, "Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father; for the Father is greater than I." (ASV). In fact, in heaven He will be at His Father's (YHWH's) right hand as testified to at Hebrews 10:12, "but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever sat down on the right hand of God:" (ASV).
SECOND, Now some lack understanding and comprehension of the Bible and say such things as,
<<"Subhanallah some people are blind OR they intentionally refuse to see.">>
And,
<<"Yet the King James Version has grave defects. By the middle of the nineteenth century, the development of Biblical studies and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James Version was based, made it manifest that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision of the English translation. The task was undertaken, by authority of the Church of England, in 1870. The English Revised Version of the Bible was published in 1881-1885; and the American Standard Version, its variant embodying the preferences of the American scholars associated in the work, was published in 1901." 32 scholars of the highest emminence (RSV preface)">>
But all the Bibles quoted in Part FIRST are all modern Bibles whose translators had, unlike the translators of the Authorized King James Bible (AV), many ancient manuscripts, codex's, scrolls, fragments, etc. available to them. In fact, the translators of the New English Bible and the New World Translation had over 30,000 available to them so the criticism leveled at the Authorized King James Bible (AV) can not apply to these translations. However, the translators of the authorized King James Bible did an excellent job considering what they had to work with, and I have found few errors or mistranslation in the Authorized King James Bible (AV) of any consequence.
So what can we surmise from this? We can surmise that individuals who do not understand the Bible look for contradictions and grasp at straws that they think are contradictions, but on closer examination prove not to be such. These individuals need to study and learn the Bible and then they would no better than many of the things they say. The saying of one such person could be very accurately applied to him; to wit, "Subhanallah some people are blind OR they intentionally refuse to see.">>
One such individual mentions the Revised Standard Version (RSV) and the American Standard Version (ASV) - previously quoted. But if we examine the Revised Standard Version (RSV) we see no departure from the other translations and a clear application with respect the Biblical Law of Agencies as follows:
Genesis 32:24-29, "And Jacob was left alone; and a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. 25 When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and Jacob's thigh was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. 26 Then he said, "Let me go, for the day is breaking." But Jacob said, "I will not let you go, unless you bless me." 27 And he said to him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Jacob." 28 Then he said, "Your name shall no more be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed." 29 Then Jacob asked him, "Tell me, I pray, your name." But he said, "Why is it that you ask my name?" And there he blessed him." (Revised Standard Version; RSV).
Here it is very clear that we are dealing with a Biblical Law of Agencies situation. How so? In that it says, "for you have striven with God and with men," clearly showing he had striven with a man, a materialized anger who had taken on human form, and with the true God (YHWH) of Abraham in a Biblical Law of Agencies sense in that the materialized angel was the true God (YHWH) of Abraham's agent. Being his agent would mean that what he did could be said as being done by his principle which in this case was the true God (YHWH) of Abraham. This is in keeping with what the world renown Bible scholar, Robert Jamieson, D.D, said, " I will not let thee go, except thou bless me--It is evident that Jacob was aware of the character of Him with whom he wrestled; and, believing that His power, though by far superior to human, was yet limited by His promise to do him good, he determined not to lose the golden opportunity of securing a blessing. And nothing gives God greater pleasure than to see the hearts of His people firmly adhering to Him." ... Jacob asked, Tell me . . . thy name--The request was denied that he might not be too elated with his conquest nor suppose that he had obtained such advantage over the angel as to make him do what he pleased.[source - Jamieson, Robert, D.D. "Commentary on Genesis 32". "Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible". 1871]
THIRD, IMPORTANT POINTS AND CONCLUSION:
[1] In none of the translation/version previously quoted did the materialized angel ever say he was the true God (YHWH) of Abraham; thereby, clearly showing his agency status.
[2] It is clear with respect Genesis 32:24-29 to any thinking individual the materialized angel - materialized as a male human -- must have the status of agent of the true God (YHWH) of Abraham and could NOT be the person of the true God (YHWH) of Abraham as the Bible clearly says at John 1:18, "No one, hath seen, God, at any time: An Only Begotten God, The One existing within the bosom of the Father, He, hath interpreted him. " (Rotherford Bible; RB); and 1 Timothy 1:17 says, "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen." (RB) yet the materialized angel, the true God (YHWH) of Abraham's agent was clearly seen by Jacob so this fact also proves that the one Jacob wrestled with was NOT the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, but his agent.
Your Friend in Christ Iris89
It is strange, but true. Those who know little about the Bible and comprehend even less make grandiose claims of error in the Bible where clearly there is no error. A good example is one individual's faulty understanding of Genesis 32:24-29. Let's look at how he went wrong.
FIRST, You are missing the point somehow. You must have an understanding of ancient customs to have an understanding of some Bible passages, and you lack this understanding. In ancient times when someone performed a task of any kind for another as an agent, the task was attributed to the one for whom he was performing the task. This is what is known as the Biblical Law of Agencies and correspondence with the modern legal concept of 'Power of Attorney.' This should be self evident to anyone if they stop and reason on the scripture where an angel or Jesus (Yeshua), the Isa, is performing a task as agent for the true God (YHWH) of Abraham. Common sense should tell you that in the instance of Genesis 32:24-29, "And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there." (Authorized King James Bible; AV) which renders it that he wrestled with a man,
And the American Standard (ASV) renders it similar as follows, "And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was strained, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there." (American Standard Version; ASV). Which likewise renders it that he wrestled with a man.
And the New World Translation (NWT) renders it as follows, "24 Finally Jacob was left by himself. Then a man began to grapple with him until the dawn ascended. 25 When he got to see that he had not prevailed over him, then he touched the socket of his thigh joint; and the socket of Jacob's thigh joint got out of place during his grappling with him. 26 After that he said: "Let me go, for the dawn has ascended." To this he said: "I am not going to let you go until you first bless me." 27 So he said to him: "What is your name?" to which he said: "Jacob." 28 Then he said: "Your name will no longer be called Jacob but Israel, for you have contended with God and with men so that you at last prevailed." 29 In turn Jacob inquired and said: "Tell me, please, your name." However, he said: "Why is it that you inquire for my name?" With that he blessed him there." (New World Translation, NWT). Which likewise renders it that he wrestled with a man.
And English Standard Version (ESV) renders it as follows, "And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. 25 When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. 26 Then he said, Let me go, for the day has broken. But Jacob said, I will not let you go unless you bless me. 27 And he said to him, What is your name? And he said, Jacob. 28 Then he said, Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed. 29 Then Jacob asked him, Please tell me your name. But he said, Why is it that you ask my name? And there he blessed him." (English Standard Version; ESV). Which likewise renders it that he wrestled with a man.
And The New English Bible (NEB) renders it as follows, "So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him there till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not throw Jacob, he struch him in the hollow of his thigh, so that Jacob's hip was dislocated as they wrestled. The man said, 'let me go for day is breaking', but Jacob replied, 'I will not let you go unless you bless me.' He said to Jacob, 'What is your name?', and he answered, 'Jacob.' The man said, 'Your name shall no longer be jacob, but Israel, because you strove with God and with men, and prevailed." Jacob said, 'Tell me, I pray, your name.' He replied, 'Why do you ask my name?', bet he have him his blessing there." (The New English Bible; NEB) Which likewise renders it that he wrestled with a man.
Now this leads to the question that causes some who lack understanding and comprehension of the Bible and of the Biblical Law of Agencies which is similar to the modern legal concept of 'Power of Attorney' where one acts as the agent for another, and the acts he/she performs are said to have been done by the principle. In the case at hand, what we have is a materialized angel acting as the agent of the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, so under the Biblical Law of Agencies it can be said that Jacob "strove with God and with men."
This same principle is clearly shown in my Commentary on John 12:41 These things said Isaiah, because he saw his glory; and he spake of him. (New American Standard Version; NASB)
To understand this scripture fully we must have a working understanding of the Jewish Law of Agencies which is basically as follows, "Jesus (Yeshua) was God's (YHWH's) appointed agent in accordance with the 'Biblical law of agency' described as, "Scripture mentions something being done by Person A, whilst another mentions it being done by Person B. This is best understood when we grasp the Schaliach Principle, or the Jewish Law of Agency, which is expressed in the dictum, "A person's agent is regarded as the person himself." Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principle." (The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, R.J.Z. Werblowski and Geoffrey Wigoder).
We, therefore, must understand this law of agencies since this will enhance our understanding of many key texts, such as why the Judges and angels were called "God" (Ex. 21:6; 22:8; Ps. 8:5; 82:1). Many more instances could be provided, but brevity is in order here. John 8:54 drives this law of agency home, "Jesus answered, 'If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God." (Confraternity Edition of The New Testament; CENTN), showing that Jesus (Yeshua) was his Father's (YHWH's) agent, and he sought not his own glory, but glory from his Father (YHWH). Therefore, Jesus (Yeshua) could say as he did at John 11:40, "Jesus said to her, 'Have I not told thee that if thou believe thou shalt behold the glory of God?'" (CETNT). Even Satan the Devil recognized this, Jesus (Yeshua), as God's (YHWH's) agent, 2 Corinthians 4:4, "In their case, the god of this world has blinded their unbelieving minds, that they should not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (CETNT); thus he is trying to blind the minds of the unbelieving to prevent them from recognizing this truth. We must be constantly on guard against the imaginations of Satan the Devil and his attempts to get all men to believe God (YHWH) dishonoring doctrines of men such as the Duality and the Trinity and be noble like the Beroeans, Acts 17:11, "Now these were of a nobler character than those of Thessalonica and they received the word with great eagerness, studying the Scriptures every day to see whether these things were so." (CETNT). Thus, it is obvious that Jesus (Yeshua) and His Father, Almighty God (YHWH) are two distinct entities or beings and NOT one and the same and/or different manifestations of the same being, and that His Father (YHWH) is NOT co-equa but greates as Jesus (Yeshua) himself said at John 14:28, "Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father; for the Father is greater than I." (ASV). In fact, in heaven He will be at His Father's (YHWH's) right hand as testified to at Hebrews 10:12, "but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever sat down on the right hand of God:" (ASV).
SECOND, Now some lack understanding and comprehension of the Bible and say such things as,
<<"Subhanallah some people are blind OR they intentionally refuse to see.">>
And,
<<"Yet the King James Version has grave defects. By the middle of the nineteenth century, the development of Biblical studies and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James Version was based, made it manifest that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision of the English translation. The task was undertaken, by authority of the Church of England, in 1870. The English Revised Version of the Bible was published in 1881-1885; and the American Standard Version, its variant embodying the preferences of the American scholars associated in the work, was published in 1901." 32 scholars of the highest emminence (RSV preface)">>
But all the Bibles quoted in Part FIRST are all modern Bibles whose translators had, unlike the translators of the Authorized King James Bible (AV), many ancient manuscripts, codex's, scrolls, fragments, etc. available to them. In fact, the translators of the New English Bible and the New World Translation had over 30,000 available to them so the criticism leveled at the Authorized King James Bible (AV) can not apply to these translations. However, the translators of the authorized King James Bible did an excellent job considering what they had to work with, and I have found few errors or mistranslation in the Authorized King James Bible (AV) of any consequence.
So what can we surmise from this? We can surmise that individuals who do not understand the Bible look for contradictions and grasp at straws that they think are contradictions, but on closer examination prove not to be such. These individuals need to study and learn the Bible and then they would no better than many of the things they say. The saying of one such person could be very accurately applied to him; to wit, "Subhanallah some people are blind OR they intentionally refuse to see.">>
One such individual mentions the Revised Standard Version (RSV) and the American Standard Version (ASV) - previously quoted. But if we examine the Revised Standard Version (RSV) we see no departure from the other translations and a clear application with respect the Biblical Law of Agencies as follows:
Genesis 32:24-29, "And Jacob was left alone; and a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. 25 When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and Jacob's thigh was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. 26 Then he said, "Let me go, for the day is breaking." But Jacob said, "I will not let you go, unless you bless me." 27 And he said to him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Jacob." 28 Then he said, "Your name shall no more be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed." 29 Then Jacob asked him, "Tell me, I pray, your name." But he said, "Why is it that you ask my name?" And there he blessed him." (Revised Standard Version; RSV).
Here it is very clear that we are dealing with a Biblical Law of Agencies situation. How so? In that it says, "for you have striven with God and with men," clearly showing he had striven with a man, a materialized anger who had taken on human form, and with the true God (YHWH) of Abraham in a Biblical Law of Agencies sense in that the materialized angel was the true God (YHWH) of Abraham's agent. Being his agent would mean that what he did could be said as being done by his principle which in this case was the true God (YHWH) of Abraham. This is in keeping with what the world renown Bible scholar, Robert Jamieson, D.D, said, " I will not let thee go, except thou bless me--It is evident that Jacob was aware of the character of Him with whom he wrestled; and, believing that His power, though by far superior to human, was yet limited by His promise to do him good, he determined not to lose the golden opportunity of securing a blessing. And nothing gives God greater pleasure than to see the hearts of His people firmly adhering to Him." ... Jacob asked, Tell me . . . thy name--The request was denied that he might not be too elated with his conquest nor suppose that he had obtained such advantage over the angel as to make him do what he pleased.[source - Jamieson, Robert, D.D. "Commentary on Genesis 32". "Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible". 1871]
THIRD, IMPORTANT POINTS AND CONCLUSION:
[1] In none of the translation/version previously quoted did the materialized angel ever say he was the true God (YHWH) of Abraham; thereby, clearly showing his agency status.
[2] It is clear with respect Genesis 32:24-29 to any thinking individual the materialized angel - materialized as a male human -- must have the status of agent of the true God (YHWH) of Abraham and could NOT be the person of the true God (YHWH) of Abraham as the Bible clearly says at John 1:18, "No one, hath seen, God, at any time: An Only Begotten God, The One existing within the bosom of the Father, He, hath interpreted him. " (Rotherford Bible; RB); and 1 Timothy 1:17 says, "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen." (RB) yet the materialized angel, the true God (YHWH) of Abraham's agent was clearly seen by Jacob so this fact also proves that the one Jacob wrestled with was NOT the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, but his agent.
Your Friend in Christ Iris89