Post by iris89 on Feb 9, 2008 20:49:07 GMT -5
The Three Gospels Accounts Of Events at Gadarenes Clearly Have The Ring of Truth:
INTRODUCTION:
Many individuals who have failed to consider that individuals who observe the same event will remember different details depending on their observation point and how they make sense of the world around them. Some individuals who are unduly skeptic and due to this absurd skepticism miss the really important things in the Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), the Bible. They fail to reckon with Ecclesiastes 12:13, "This is the end of the matter; all hath been heard: fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man." (ASV), and James 3:2, "For in many things we all stumble. If any stumbleth not in word, the same is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body also." (ASV).
First, They consider worldly wisdom superior to the wisdom of their creator, the supreme one of the universe, Almighty God (YHWH). This is clearly testified to in James 3:13-18 as follows:
Who is wise and understanding among you? let him show by his good life his works in meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter jealousy and faction in your heart, glory not and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom is not a wisdom that cometh down from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where jealousy and faction are, there is confusion and every vile deed.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without variance, without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for them that make peace. (ASV).
And 1 Corinthians 3:19 which shows the wisdom of this world is just foolishness, "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He that taketh the wise in their craftiness:" (ASV).
Second, These skeptical ones forget that all are human and none is perfect as brought out by James 3:2, but expect others to be like "peas in a pod"; to wit, without differences. For example, one of these unreasonable skeptics, an engineer by trade, even had the unmitigated gull to imply that just because each Gospel account, three in total, of an event where Jesus (Yeshua) made the daemons come out of an individual differed in detail that only one account could be accurate. Clearly this is totally unreasonable as no two persons view events that transpire from the same location or orientation, nor do they make sense out of the world around them in the same way.
To this individual, I said, <<<" Now let's look at the reality, why should anyone deviate from reality, the truth, as you are implicitly suggesting? Would you as an engineer sign of on a bridge or other structure that you knew was designed with a Safety Factor of less than 1? I am sure you would not as you would know that would not work; likewise, I and others well know the Bible is reality just as you well know engineering principles such as safety factor, deflection, modulus of elasticity. Failure point, etc. are reality.
Now would you change from being an "absolutist" or "dogmatic" with respect engineering principles such as safety factor, deflection, modulus of elasticity. Failure point, etc. which are reality. I do not think so as I believe you are an excellent engineer. So please get real.>>>. In fact, I very strongly suggest that no two engineers would design a major project in exactly the same way - identical blue prints, specifications, request for quotation, etc. Yet, this skeptic feels that inspired Bible readers should grind out exactly the same wording and details with respect an occurred event - how unreasonable and ridicules as humans are not just mindless computers that only do as they are programmed, but individuals.
Whereas, this individual, who is overly skeptic, tries to cast disparagement's on the Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), the Bible, he put forth the works and opinions of worldly philosophers whose writings are pure personal opinion as reliable. Now that is definitely not being fair minded in any sense of the world, nor objective..
He appears unaware of the following facts. All four gospels in many cases contain similar accounts, and three of them were eyewitness accounts. It is quite obvious he has not spent much time in a court rooms or he readily know there are slight variances always between eyewitness accounts, and that is to be expected; therefore, his question, in this instance, <<<"Can someone here please confirm for me with absolute certainty which of the following "eyewitness" accounts about "Jesus casting out 'demons' and into swine" is the absolute, reliable version of reality?">>>, is simply absurd.
Now let's look at the different accounts.
ACCOUNTS OF THE HAPENINGS AT GADARENES:
Eyewitness Accounts:
Matthew's account was that of an eyewitness, his account is as follows:
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, there met him two possessed with demons, coming forth out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man could pass by that way.
29 And behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
30 Now there was afar off from them a herd of many swine feeding.
31 And the demons besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, send us away into the herd of swine.
32 And he said unto them, Go. And they came out, and went into the swine: and behold, the whole herd rushed down the steep into the sea, and perished in the waters.
33 And they that fed them fled, and went away into the city, and told everything, and what was befallen to them that were possessed with demons.
34 And behold, all the city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart from their borders. (American Standard Version; ASV).
Luke's account was that of any eyewitness, his account is as follows:
And they arrived at the country of the Gerasenes, which is over against Galilee.
27 And when he was come forth upon the land, there met him a certain man out of the city, who had demons; and for a long time he had worn no clothes, and abode not in any house, but in the tombs.
28 And when he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? I beseech thee, torment me not.
29 For he was commanding the unclean spirit to come out from the man. For oftentimes it had seized him: and he was kept under guard, and bound with chains and fetters; and breaking the bands asunder, he was driven of the demon into the deserts.
30 And Jesus asked him, What is thy name? And he said, Legion; for many demons were entered into him.
31 And they entreated him that he would not command them to depart into the abyss.
32 Now there was there a herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they entreated him that he would give them leave to enter into them. And he gave them leave.
33 And the demons came out from the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd rushed down the steep into the lake, and were drowned.
34 And when they that fed them saw what had come to pass, they fled, and told it in the city and in the country.
35 And they went out to see what had come to pass; and they came to Jesus, and found the man, from whom the demons were gone out, sitting, clothed and in his right mind, at the feet of Jesus: and they were afraid.
36 And they that saw it told them how he that was possessed with demons was made whole.
37 And all the people of the country of the Gerasenes round about asked him to depart from them, for they were holden with great fear: and he entered into a boat, and returned. (ASV).
Here we can see the normal thing to expect of eyewitnesses to an event, each remembers some details that other eyewitnesses did not. There are two logical reasons for this, (1) Each was observing from a different view or place, (2) Each remembers what strikes him most of what he/she saw. That is one of the reasons that police like to have more than one witness of an event as each will remember different important details. It should be remembered that no two individuals make sense of the world around them in the same way.
Now The Details on a None Eyewitness Account:
Now with respect Mark, Let's first consider who he was. His Hebrew name was John, meaning "Jehovah Has Shown Favor," and Mark was a cousin of Barnabas per Acts 4:10, "Aristarchus my fellow-prisoner saluteth you, and Mark, the cousin of Barnabas (touching whom ye received commandments; if he come unto you, receive him)," (ASV) . He was also the traveling companion of Barnabas and other early Christian missionaries, and was the inspired writer of the Gospel of Mark. He, is the John Mark mentioned in the book of Acts at Acts 13:13, "Now Paul and his company set sail from Paphos, and came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departed from them and returned to Jerusalem." (ASV).
As noted previously in another thread by Roman Christian, he was probably the scantily clad young man who fled on the night of Jesus' betrayal that he mentioned in his Gospel at Mark 14:51-52, "And a certain young man followed with him, having a linen cloth cast about him, over his naked body: and they lay hold on him; 52 but he left the linen cloth, and fled naked." (ASV). He appears to have been present when the holy spirit was poured out at Pentecost 33 C.E. per Acts 2:1-4, "And when the day of Pentecost was now come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound as of the rushing of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them tongues parting asunder, like as of fire; and it sat upon each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." (ASV).
It also appears that Mark served as the attendant for Barnabas and Paul when they carried out the relief ministration in Jerusalem per Acts 12:25, "And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem, when they had fulfilled their ministration, taking with them John whose surname was Mark." (ASV); and Acts 13.5, "And when they were at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John as their attendant." (ASV). However, thwn they arrived a Perga in Pamphylia, Mark withdrew from them and returned to Jerusalem per Acts 13:13, "Now Paul and his company set sail from Paphos, and came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departed from them and returned to Jerusalem." (ASV).
So Mark was probably not an eyewitness to what he recorded with respect this event, but one who had been given detailed accounts by eyewitnesses and was acting as their secretary and taking basically what amounted to a transcript. Let's look at his account:
And they came to the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gerasenes.
2 And when he was come out of the boat, straightway there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3 who had his dwelling in the tombs: and no man could any more bind him, no, not with a chain;
4 because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been rent asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: and no man had strength to tame him.
5 And always, night and day, in the tombs and in the mountains, he was crying out, and cutting himself with stones.
6 And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshipped him;
7 and crying out with a loud voice, he saith, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, torment me not.
8 For he said unto him, Come forth, thou unclean spirit, out of the man.
9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he saith unto him, My name is Legion; for we are many.
10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
11 Now there was there on the mountain side a great herd of swine feeding.
12 And they besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
13 And he gave them leave. And the unclean spirits came out, and entered into the swine: and the herd rushed down the steep into the sea, in number about two thousand; and they were drowned in the sea.
14 And they that fed them fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they came to see what it was that had come to pass.
15 And they come to Jesus, and behold him that was possessed with demons sitting, clothed and in his right mind, even him that had the legion: and they were afraid.
16 And they that saw it declared unto them how it befell him that was possessed with demons, and concerning the swine.
17 And they began to beseech him to depart from their borders.
18 And as he was entering into the boat, he that had been possessed with demons besought him that he might be with him. (ASV).
CONCLUSION:
But in all accounts given by different individuals, the main event was clearly testified to clearly showing that it actually occurred, and each observer, eyewitness, remembered certain details that the others did not which is what always happens when several individuals observe an event unless they have collaborated together to have their accounts exactly the same. This very difference with respect to detail stamps the accounts as authentic and reliable, and not contrived. Evidently, it was other eyewitnesses that filled Mark in when he acted as their transcriber or secretary.
To learn more, check out the following:
[1] religioustruths.proboards59.com/ An Educational Referral Forum
[2] www.network54.com/Forum/403209 A Forum Devoted to Exposing The False Religion of Islam
[3] jude3.proboards92.com/ A Free-Speech Forum For All
[4] www.freewebs.com/iris_the_preacher My web site.
Your Friend in Christ Iris89
Link to Post - Back to Top Logged
INTRODUCTION:
Many individuals who have failed to consider that individuals who observe the same event will remember different details depending on their observation point and how they make sense of the world around them. Some individuals who are unduly skeptic and due to this absurd skepticism miss the really important things in the Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), the Bible. They fail to reckon with Ecclesiastes 12:13, "This is the end of the matter; all hath been heard: fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man." (ASV), and James 3:2, "For in many things we all stumble. If any stumbleth not in word, the same is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body also." (ASV).
First, They consider worldly wisdom superior to the wisdom of their creator, the supreme one of the universe, Almighty God (YHWH). This is clearly testified to in James 3:13-18 as follows:
Who is wise and understanding among you? let him show by his good life his works in meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter jealousy and faction in your heart, glory not and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom is not a wisdom that cometh down from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where jealousy and faction are, there is confusion and every vile deed.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without variance, without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for them that make peace. (ASV).
And 1 Corinthians 3:19 which shows the wisdom of this world is just foolishness, "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He that taketh the wise in their craftiness:" (ASV).
Second, These skeptical ones forget that all are human and none is perfect as brought out by James 3:2, but expect others to be like "peas in a pod"; to wit, without differences. For example, one of these unreasonable skeptics, an engineer by trade, even had the unmitigated gull to imply that just because each Gospel account, three in total, of an event where Jesus (Yeshua) made the daemons come out of an individual differed in detail that only one account could be accurate. Clearly this is totally unreasonable as no two persons view events that transpire from the same location or orientation, nor do they make sense out of the world around them in the same way.
To this individual, I said, <<<" Now let's look at the reality, why should anyone deviate from reality, the truth, as you are implicitly suggesting? Would you as an engineer sign of on a bridge or other structure that you knew was designed with a Safety Factor of less than 1? I am sure you would not as you would know that would not work; likewise, I and others well know the Bible is reality just as you well know engineering principles such as safety factor, deflection, modulus of elasticity. Failure point, etc. are reality.
Now would you change from being an "absolutist" or "dogmatic" with respect engineering principles such as safety factor, deflection, modulus of elasticity. Failure point, etc. which are reality. I do not think so as I believe you are an excellent engineer. So please get real.>>>. In fact, I very strongly suggest that no two engineers would design a major project in exactly the same way - identical blue prints, specifications, request for quotation, etc. Yet, this skeptic feels that inspired Bible readers should grind out exactly the same wording and details with respect an occurred event - how unreasonable and ridicules as humans are not just mindless computers that only do as they are programmed, but individuals.
Whereas, this individual, who is overly skeptic, tries to cast disparagement's on the Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), the Bible, he put forth the works and opinions of worldly philosophers whose writings are pure personal opinion as reliable. Now that is definitely not being fair minded in any sense of the world, nor objective..
He appears unaware of the following facts. All four gospels in many cases contain similar accounts, and three of them were eyewitness accounts. It is quite obvious he has not spent much time in a court rooms or he readily know there are slight variances always between eyewitness accounts, and that is to be expected; therefore, his question, in this instance, <<<"Can someone here please confirm for me with absolute certainty which of the following "eyewitness" accounts about "Jesus casting out 'demons' and into swine" is the absolute, reliable version of reality?">>>, is simply absurd.
Now let's look at the different accounts.
ACCOUNTS OF THE HAPENINGS AT GADARENES:
Eyewitness Accounts:
Matthew's account was that of an eyewitness, his account is as follows:
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, there met him two possessed with demons, coming forth out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man could pass by that way.
29 And behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
30 Now there was afar off from them a herd of many swine feeding.
31 And the demons besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, send us away into the herd of swine.
32 And he said unto them, Go. And they came out, and went into the swine: and behold, the whole herd rushed down the steep into the sea, and perished in the waters.
33 And they that fed them fled, and went away into the city, and told everything, and what was befallen to them that were possessed with demons.
34 And behold, all the city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart from their borders. (American Standard Version; ASV).
Luke's account was that of any eyewitness, his account is as follows:
And they arrived at the country of the Gerasenes, which is over against Galilee.
27 And when he was come forth upon the land, there met him a certain man out of the city, who had demons; and for a long time he had worn no clothes, and abode not in any house, but in the tombs.
28 And when he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? I beseech thee, torment me not.
29 For he was commanding the unclean spirit to come out from the man. For oftentimes it had seized him: and he was kept under guard, and bound with chains and fetters; and breaking the bands asunder, he was driven of the demon into the deserts.
30 And Jesus asked him, What is thy name? And he said, Legion; for many demons were entered into him.
31 And they entreated him that he would not command them to depart into the abyss.
32 Now there was there a herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they entreated him that he would give them leave to enter into them. And he gave them leave.
33 And the demons came out from the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd rushed down the steep into the lake, and were drowned.
34 And when they that fed them saw what had come to pass, they fled, and told it in the city and in the country.
35 And they went out to see what had come to pass; and they came to Jesus, and found the man, from whom the demons were gone out, sitting, clothed and in his right mind, at the feet of Jesus: and they were afraid.
36 And they that saw it told them how he that was possessed with demons was made whole.
37 And all the people of the country of the Gerasenes round about asked him to depart from them, for they were holden with great fear: and he entered into a boat, and returned. (ASV).
Here we can see the normal thing to expect of eyewitnesses to an event, each remembers some details that other eyewitnesses did not. There are two logical reasons for this, (1) Each was observing from a different view or place, (2) Each remembers what strikes him most of what he/she saw. That is one of the reasons that police like to have more than one witness of an event as each will remember different important details. It should be remembered that no two individuals make sense of the world around them in the same way.
Now The Details on a None Eyewitness Account:
Now with respect Mark, Let's first consider who he was. His Hebrew name was John, meaning "Jehovah Has Shown Favor," and Mark was a cousin of Barnabas per Acts 4:10, "Aristarchus my fellow-prisoner saluteth you, and Mark, the cousin of Barnabas (touching whom ye received commandments; if he come unto you, receive him)," (ASV) . He was also the traveling companion of Barnabas and other early Christian missionaries, and was the inspired writer of the Gospel of Mark. He, is the John Mark mentioned in the book of Acts at Acts 13:13, "Now Paul and his company set sail from Paphos, and came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departed from them and returned to Jerusalem." (ASV).
As noted previously in another thread by Roman Christian, he was probably the scantily clad young man who fled on the night of Jesus' betrayal that he mentioned in his Gospel at Mark 14:51-52, "And a certain young man followed with him, having a linen cloth cast about him, over his naked body: and they lay hold on him; 52 but he left the linen cloth, and fled naked." (ASV). He appears to have been present when the holy spirit was poured out at Pentecost 33 C.E. per Acts 2:1-4, "And when the day of Pentecost was now come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound as of the rushing of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them tongues parting asunder, like as of fire; and it sat upon each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." (ASV).
It also appears that Mark served as the attendant for Barnabas and Paul when they carried out the relief ministration in Jerusalem per Acts 12:25, "And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem, when they had fulfilled their ministration, taking with them John whose surname was Mark." (ASV); and Acts 13.5, "And when they were at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John as their attendant." (ASV). However, thwn they arrived a Perga in Pamphylia, Mark withdrew from them and returned to Jerusalem per Acts 13:13, "Now Paul and his company set sail from Paphos, and came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departed from them and returned to Jerusalem." (ASV).
So Mark was probably not an eyewitness to what he recorded with respect this event, but one who had been given detailed accounts by eyewitnesses and was acting as their secretary and taking basically what amounted to a transcript. Let's look at his account:
And they came to the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gerasenes.
2 And when he was come out of the boat, straightway there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3 who had his dwelling in the tombs: and no man could any more bind him, no, not with a chain;
4 because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been rent asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: and no man had strength to tame him.
5 And always, night and day, in the tombs and in the mountains, he was crying out, and cutting himself with stones.
6 And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshipped him;
7 and crying out with a loud voice, he saith, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, torment me not.
8 For he said unto him, Come forth, thou unclean spirit, out of the man.
9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he saith unto him, My name is Legion; for we are many.
10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
11 Now there was there on the mountain side a great herd of swine feeding.
12 And they besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
13 And he gave them leave. And the unclean spirits came out, and entered into the swine: and the herd rushed down the steep into the sea, in number about two thousand; and they were drowned in the sea.
14 And they that fed them fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they came to see what it was that had come to pass.
15 And they come to Jesus, and behold him that was possessed with demons sitting, clothed and in his right mind, even him that had the legion: and they were afraid.
16 And they that saw it declared unto them how it befell him that was possessed with demons, and concerning the swine.
17 And they began to beseech him to depart from their borders.
18 And as he was entering into the boat, he that had been possessed with demons besought him that he might be with him. (ASV).
CONCLUSION:
But in all accounts given by different individuals, the main event was clearly testified to clearly showing that it actually occurred, and each observer, eyewitness, remembered certain details that the others did not which is what always happens when several individuals observe an event unless they have collaborated together to have their accounts exactly the same. This very difference with respect to detail stamps the accounts as authentic and reliable, and not contrived. Evidently, it was other eyewitnesses that filled Mark in when he acted as their transcriber or secretary.
To learn more, check out the following:
[1] religioustruths.proboards59.com/ An Educational Referral Forum
[2] www.network54.com/Forum/403209 A Forum Devoted to Exposing The False Religion of Islam
[3] jude3.proboards92.com/ A Free-Speech Forum For All
[4] www.freewebs.com/iris_the_preacher My web site.
Your Friend in Christ Iris89
Link to Post - Back to Top Logged