Post by iris89 on Sept 8, 2008 10:59:03 GMT -5
Unbiased Objective Independent Research, NOT Debate Lead to Ultimate Truth
INTRODUCTION:
FIRST, The purpose of debate is to win an argument, NOT find ultimate Truth, the reality.
SECOND, On analyzing most debates carefully, it can usually readily be seen that neither debater has carefully considered the facts other than superficially with respects only to his/her plans to win the debate. Debaters just arrange what sounds good with a view to winning a debate - NOT for arriving at ultimate Truth.
THIRD, Only unbiased objective research leads to ultimate Truth.
FOOLISHNESS OF DEBATES:
FIRST, I have listened to many debates and have found them foolish with respect leading to ultimate Truth - they never do. But in spite of this reality, some are even so foolish as to write books about debates.
This reality was driven home for me many years ago when my husband was pursuing his first degree at a university in Tennessee USA which had a member of the Church of Christ as the president. This college president strongly believed that drinking of alcoholic beverages was very sinful and called for a debate between pro and anti drinking groups.
For the anti drinking group, he choose his minister to be the lead debater.
For the pro drinking group, he choose a student that was a complete Bible illiterate who was known to be a big drinker. This poor student right off knew he had been 'set up' and came to my none alcohol drinking minister husband for assistance. After some 'arm twisting' my husband agreed to be on his team.
On debate day, the anti drinking group led off. The Church of Christ minister went into a long winded diatribe about the evils and sins of drinking and selling alcoholic beverages. My husband quietly sat with the pro drinking group listening to this boring diatribe.
Finally my husband raised his hand and was recognized by the Church of Christ minister. He said to him, I want to be sure I understand what you are saying. I believe you said that using and/or selling alcoholic beverages is sinful and wrong.
To this, the Church of Christ minister answered to the effect that his understanding was entirely correct.
Then my husband asked him another question. He asked if the makers/manufacturers of alcoholic beverages is more sinful and wrong than the users and sellers.
To this question, the Church of Christ minister, launched into a long diatribe denouncing the makers as the most sinful and wrong that lasted for quite some time.
When he finished, my husband said, I would like to draw your attention to who according to what you have said would be one of the most sinful and evil individuals of all time, and started reading John 2:3-10, "And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. 4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. 5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. 6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. 7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it. 9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now." (Authorized King James Bible, AV). And then he said, that was Jesus (Yeshua) Christ's first miracle, but according to what you said, he is one of the most sinful and wicked men of all times.
Complete silence in university auditorium for a few seconds, then pandemonium broke loose. My husband had clearly one the debate for the pro alcoholic group [even though he is an absolute none drinker.].
However, in no way had my husband's actions in winning the debate lead to ultimate Truth!
I mentioned this incident to show how silly debates really are and that they do NOT lead to ultimate Truth.
SECOND, one writer, writing under the pseudonym "soomiasaquib" in a short article called "Qur'an and Bible in the light of Science," summarized a debate between Dr. William Campbell and Dr. Zakir Naik, that on close examination clearly shows neither debater really was interested in arriving at ultimate truth, but only in winning the debate.
The setting was that Dr. Zakir Naik was a member of Islam, and Dr. William Campbell was a member to taxonomy classification group 2 of so called Christians.
Now some may ask what are the taxonomy classifications of the two very different groups called Christian. Here they are in brief, but will be covered more extensively later.
Group 1 - the genuine (true) followers of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ do NOT involve themselves with war and violence or meddle in politics, and try to follow to the 'letter' the words and commandments of Christ. Also, they have NO creedal doctrines and/or traditions. [[genuine true followers of Christ]]
Group 2 - the false claimants of being followers of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ involve themselves with war and violence and meddle in politics while falsely claiming to be followers of Christ, the Prince of Peace. The give 'lip' service with respect following to the 'letter' the words and commandments of Christ - the term Sunday Christian aptly fits them. They have their creedal doctrines and/or traditions and assign more importance to these than the Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), the Bible. [[followers of Christ in name only]]
One of the basis of this debate was, per "soomiasaquib,” <<<“Dr. Campbell wrote a book with the title "The Qur'an and the Bible in the light of History and Science" in which he has asserted that Qur'anic verses
are unscientific where as the passages from the Bible are scientific. In his book, Dr. Campbell also
challenged the Muslims to refute his assertions. This challenge was accepted by Dr. Zakir Naik,
President of Islamic Research Foundation, Mumbai, India. Dr. Naik, barely 34 years old, has
sacrificed his medical practice and is actively involved in Da'wah work (conveying the Message of
Islam) all over the world. He explains the teachings of Islam in the light of the teachings of the Qur'an,” [source - "Qur'an and Bible in the light of Science," by "soomiasaquib.”]>>>.
First off this argument in fallacious from start to finish since the Qur’an, like the Book of Mormon is nothing but a distorted Bible knockoff made up of many ideas plagiarized from mostly the Bible and the Talmud. As revealed by renown German Researcher, Christoph Luxenberg [], in an article called “Renown German Researcher, Christoph Luxenberg, Reveals Qur'an a Knockoff Of The Bible:” by Iris the Preacher,
<<<” The Renown German Researcher, Christoph Luxenberg, a world renown linguistic scholar, in his book clearly reveals that the Quran is nothing but a distorted knockoff of the inspired word of the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael, creator of all there is, the Bible. Here is just one example, but the interested individual can find many many pages of similars in his book.
Let's first look at what the Quran (Koran) says at Sura 3:47:
Sura 3:47, "She said, "My Lord, how can I have a son, when no man has touched me?" He said, "GOD thus creates whatever He wills. To have anything done, He simply says to it, `Be,' and it is."
[3 parallel translations of Sura 3:47:
YUSUFALI: She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
PICKTHAL: She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
SHAKIR: She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.]
And, Sura 3:48 says, ""He will teach him the scripture, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel." Interestingly here the Quran (Koran) actually speaks of the first five (5) books of the Bible, the Torah; yet today many Muslims rail against the Bible from which their book the Quran (Koran) was plagiarized from.
[3 parallel translations of Sura 3:48:
YUSUFALI: "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
PICKTHAL: And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel,
SHAKIR: And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat and the Injeel. ]
Now the Bible says at Luke 1:35, "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God." (American Standard Version; ASV)."
A short review of his book can be found in, "HUGOYE: JOURNAL OF SYRIAC STUDIES," book review of Christoph Luxenberg (ps.) Die syro-aramaeische Lesart des Koran; Ein Beitrag zur Entschlüsselung der Qur'ansprache. Berlin, Germany: Das Arabische Buch, First Edition, 2000. Pp. ix + 306, Vol. 6, No. 1, January 2003.
[http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye/Vol6No1/HV6N1PRPhenixHorn.html ]
But to really get specific facts in great detail with advanced literary analysis one must read his book of 306 pages.” [source - “Renown German Researcher, Christoph Luxenberg, Reveals Qur'an a Knockoff Of The Bible:” by Iris the Preacher]>>>.
As can readily be seen, Sura 3:48 was STOLEN from the Bible as was much of the remainder in the Qur’an so do discuss which is more scientific, the distorted Bible knockoff the Qur’an or the Bible is the height of utter foolishness. Its like saying counterfeit money is better than the original. This of course is just dumb and foolish and need be given no further attention.
Another basis of this debate per "soomiasaquib” was, <<<”posed to him was widely appreciated. On a humorous note, Dr. Naik challenged Dr. Campbell to
prove himself a true Christian by just reading the phrase 'one hundred rupees' in the seventeen languages of India as is depicted on a hundred rupee note of India - in this context, Dr. Naik referred to the claim of the Bible that true Christians can speak in new foreign languages. Dr. Campbell was speechless at this. He later returned the hundred rupee note when Dr. Naik presented him with a copy of his newly released book, 'The Qur'an and Modern Science - Compatible or Incompatible?.' “ [source - "Qur'an and Bible in the light of Science," by "soomiasaquib.”]>>>.
This was not really humorous, but pathetic as it clearly showed that neither Doctor really knew what he was talking about. The Bible clearly shows what they were referring to was a miracle that occurred in the early Christian congregation and which was recorded at Acts 2:5-12, as follows, “Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speaking in his own language.[[The hearers, being individuals of many nations and languages were clearly confounded since each heard the Galileans speaking IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE – NOT just someone speaking in another language.]] 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying, Behold, are not all these that speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, in Judaea and Cappadocia, in Pontus and Asia, 10 in Phrygia and Pamphylia, in Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues the mighty works of God. 12 And they were all amazed, and were perplexed, saying one to another, What meaneth this?” (American Standard Version: ASV)
Interestingly both Doctors overlooked the point that individuals in the audience at this time each simultaneously heard them speaking in HIS/HER own language – a true miracle. Also, the overlooked the fact that miraculous gifts of the spirit such as this were only bestowed through the apostles and/or in their presence as clearly shown at Acts 8:14-19, “Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.” (Authorized King James Bible, AV). And Acts 19:1-7, “And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve.” (AV). And Acts 10:44-46, “While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,” (AV).
Of course these miraculous gifts were only in the early congregation, but have since LONG passed away as shown by 1 Corinthians 13:8-10, “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (AV), so clearly neither Doctor really knew his subject. Yet one of the Doctors had the audacity to even write a book about the dumb debate – simply unbelievable and foolish.
TAXONOMIES OF THE TWO SO CALLED CHRISTIAN GROUPS IN DETAIL:
The so called Christian religion consist of over 33,000+ sects and/or groups all believing and propagating different things which is the promoting of many false religions under the broad umbrella of the taxonomy of being Christian. However, it should be obvious to any thinking individual that 33,000+ different ways can NOT all be correct, so what we in effect have is a very large maze that one must transverse to get to the real truth since all but one would only be dead ends – the Devils plan to confuse and lead astray.
Of course, in order to do this, one can NOT examine each in detail, but must therefore seek to learn what the Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), Creator of all that exist, the Bible, really teaches. But this is no easy task.
But let's consider the two taxonomies or distinct classifications of what is commonly referred to as Christianity. Realizing that some view gaining salvation as and easy task and feel that belonging to any old religion is acceptable to Almighty God (YHWH), but is it? Let's look at some facts, realities in keeping with John 8:32, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (Authorized King James Bible; AV).
Now let's look at the two different taxonomies and carefully note what sets them apart from each other:
Group 1 - the genuine (true) followers of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ do NOT involve themselves with war and violence or meddle in politics, and try to follow to the 'letter' the words and commandments of Christ. Also, they have NO creedal doctrines and/or traditions.
Group 2 - the false claimants of being followers of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ involve themselves with war and violence and meddle in politics while falsely claiming to be followers of Christ, the Prince of Peace. The give 'lip' service with respect following to the 'letter' the words and commandments of Christ - the term Sunday Christian aptly fits them. They have their creedal doctrines and/or traditions and assign more importance to these than the Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), the Bible.
As can readily be seen, Group 1 does not involve itself with nationalism and racism but readily recognizes the Biblical reality of no partiality as shown at Romans 2:11 and elsewhere, "for there is no respect of persons with God." (American Standard Version: ASV). Also, this group strives to follow the 'letter' of the commandments of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ and Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), Creator of all that exist, the Bible; and NOT the creeds and creedal doctrines of men who give themselves high sounding titles.
Whereas, Group 2 only gives 'lip service' to commandments of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ and Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), Creator of all that exist, the Bible. The self evident truth being:
That it matters not what their holy book says be they Group 2 so called Christians and/or some none so called Christian group such as Islam, Hinduism, etc. It is not what either the Bible or the Bible takeoff the Qur'an actually say, but how religious leaders be they priest and/or imams or muftis or what ever teach the people is the interpretation of what is written either in the Bible or the bible takeoff the Qur'an that matters and governs actions. It matters not what the Bible and/or the Bible takeoff really say. People go by what they are taught by their religious leaders. Take the genocide committed by the Roman Catholic Church at the direction of their supreme religious leader, the pope, what mattered was not that the Bible clearly said at Exodus 20:13, "Thou shalt not kill." (Authorized King James Bible; AV), but what their religious leaders told them. Therefore, it is the religion at fault, irregardless of what their particular holy book, be it the Bible or the Bible takeoff the Qur'an may say. Neither in so called Christianity or in Islam are most individuals actions really governed in any way by what their particular holy book really says, but they are governed by the interpretation of their religious leaders. Thus, knowing this reality, one would be either just plain stupid and/or dumb to even bother looking at a particular religion's holy book and expect the members would conform to it. Take the Rig Vede and find me for example a Hindu actually conforming to it instead of the interpretation given to it by his religious leaders, like looking for a needle in the haystack per K.S. Lal, India's greatest historian.
So, clearly, it is NOT my taxonomy but reality that sets the two groups clearly apart as separate classifications. Also, it is not my opinion that sets the two separate groups that are called "Christians" apart, but clearly the diametrically opposed actions of the two groups.
In fact, the Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), the Bible, clearly demonstrates how difficult it really is not to be mislead by the Devil and the religious leaders of evil false religions under control of the god of this system of things. This was clearly shown by Almighty God's (YHWH's) Son, Jesus (Yeshua), in answering a question asked of him at Luke 13:23-30, "And one said unto him, Lord, are they few that are saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in by the narrow door: for many, I say unto you, shall seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, open to us; and he shall answer and say to you, I know you not whence ye are; 26 then shall ye begin to say, We did eat and drink in thy presence, and thou didst teach in our streets; 27 and he shall say, I tell you, I know not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without. 29 And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, there are last who shall be first, and there are first who shall be last." (ASV).
Also, Jesus (Yeshua) clearly showed his genuine (true) followers would be few in number compared to the total number of mankind. Let's consider both Luke 13:24 and Matthew 7:13-14, it is in both of these that the road followed by true believers would be narrow and cramped, Luke 13:24, "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." (Authorized King James Bible: AV); And Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, abroad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (AV); thereby, clearly showing few would be entering the narrow gate "which leadeth unto life." In reality, it will be difficult for even true Christians to enter as testified to at 1 Peter 4:18, "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear." (AV). In order to enter, we must have the right sort of guide, Luke 1:79, "To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace." (AV). Now, if one picks the wrong group, just because it is popular or the so called 'one to belong to in a community' and not because of Bible Truths, there is an important warning given at Matthew 15:14, "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." (AV). In fact, being with the wrong group can mean you are NOT having fellowship with the Son of God, Jesus (Yeshua) as testified to at 1 John 1:6, "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not [have] the truth." (AV). This danger is made abundantly clear at Luke 12:32 when Jesus (Yeshua) spoke of his true followers as a little flock and not a large one, "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." (AV). Simply stated, his true followers will be relatively few in number which should cause all sincere individuals to question whether mainstream religion with its vast membership is heading for the narrow gate!
Now being this is the case, it behooves all genuine (true) followers of Jesus (Yeshua) to show neighbor love and warn their neighbors of the need to seek genuine salvation and to get OUT OF EVIL FALSE RELIGION regardless of what it is called or how long their families and friends have been members of it. This would be required by what Jesus (Yeshua) said at Matthew 22:37-40, "And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets." (ASV).
We will consider how this love of neighbor requires all genuine (true) followers to warn their neighbors of evil false religion by exposing it for what it is.
PROOF AS SHOWN BY THE WORLD’S TWO LARGEST CULTS:
As brought out in the definition of Group 1, they do NOT support violence and wars; whereas, Group 2, not only support violence but in the case of many in Islam, they lust for it, and within Christendom, the Roman Catholic Church has been responsible for much violence. An article, “Only a False Religion Commits Genocide Against Others:” by Iris the Preacher clearly brings out with facts that both of these groups have committed major genocides. Members of Islam have murdered between 80,000,000 and 100,000,000 in genocides; whereas, the Roman Catholic Church has murdered well over 1,200,000 in genocides. So of course neither can be the genuine religion, but both are just large false religious cults having false prophets such a Muhammad and the Popes.
Let’s look at an exert from “Only a False Religion Commits Genocide Against Others.”
<<<” Both Catholicism and Islam have committed genocide's so both are false religions. Let's look at the facts in brief:
<<"The Cathers found widespread popularity among peasants and artisans. They respected women, who played a major role in the movement. Alarmed at the success of Catharism, the church founded the Inquisition and launched the Albigensian Crusade in the thirteenth century to exterminate them." [source -http://www.frostcloud.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5163 ]>>. So Catholicism is a false religion, and more detail will be presented to prove this statement.
<<"Historian Will Durant wrote in The Story of Civilization (1972) that the Muslim conquest of India was "probably the bloodiest story in history." The number of people killed is estimated based on the Muslim chronicles and demographic calculations. K.S. Lal estimated in his book The Growth of Muslim Population in India that between 1000 CE and 1500 CE, the population of Hindus decreased by 80 million. The legacy of Islamic conquest of South Asia is a hotly debated issue even today." [sources - "The Story of Civilization - 1972 - by Will Durant, and "The Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India" by India's greatest historian, K.S. Lal]>>. So Islam is a false religion, and more detail will be presented to prove this statement.
GENOCIDE OF THE CATHERS BY THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH - THE FACTS:
Let's look at the facts, the reality, in keeping with John 8:32, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (Authorized King James Bible; AV).
<<"Catharism was a religious movement with dualist Christian and Gnostic elements that appeared in the Languedoc in the eleventh century and flourished in the 12th century. It was condemned by the contemporary Roman Catholic Church either as a heretical Christian sect or sometimes as a non-Christian religion. It existed throughout much of Western Europe, but its focus was in Languedoc and surrounding areas - Occitania - what is now southern France.
The name Cathar most likely originated from Greek ?a?a???, "pure ones". One of its first recorded uses is Eckbert von Schönau, who wrote (in Latin) on heretics from Cologne in 1181: Hos nostra germania catharos appellat ("In Germany we call these people Cathars").
The Cathars were also sometimes referred to as the Albigensians. This name originates from the end of the 12th century, and was used by the chronicler Geoffroy du Breuil of Vigeois in 1181. The name refers to the town of Albi (the ancient Albiga) northeast of Toulouse. The designation is misleading (although Albi was one among several early focal points of Catharism): the movement had no centre and is known to have flourished in areas that are now parts of Italy, Germany, Northern France and Spain as well as the Languedoc." .[source - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia]
The churches' genocide against the Cathars from start to finish, <<"In 1147, Pope Eugene III sent a legate to the affected district in order to arrest the progress of the Cathars. The few isolated successes of Bernard of Clairvaux could not obscure the poor results of this mission, which clearly showed the power of the sect in the Languedoc at that period. The missions of Cardinal Peter of St. Chrysogonus to Toulouse and the Toulousain in 1178, and of Henry, cardinal-bishop of Albano, in 1180-1181, obtained merely momentary successes. Henry of Albano's armed expedition, which took the stronghold at Lavaur, did not extinguish the movement.
Decisions of Catholic Church councils against the Cathars at this period - in particular, those of the Council of Tours (1163) and of the Third Council of the Lateran (1179) - had scarcely more effect. By the time Pope Innocent III came to power in 1198, he had resolved to suppress the Cathars.
Saint Dominic encountered the Cathars in 1203 while travelling, and argued with them, concluding that only preachers who displayed real sanctity, humility and asceticism could win over convinced Cathar believers. His conviction led eventually to the establishment of the Dominican Order in 1216. The order was to live up to the terms of his famous rebuke, "Zeal must be met by zeal, humility by humility, false sanctity by real sanctity, preaching falsehood by preaching truth."
At first Pope Innocent III tried pacific conversion, and sent a number of legates into the affected regions. They had to contend not only with the Cathars, the nobles who protected them, and the people who venerated them, but also with the bishops of the district, who rejected the extraordinary authority which the Pope had conferred upon his legates. In 1204, Innocent III suspended the authority of certain bishops in the south of France; in 1205 he appointed a new and vigorous bishop of Toulouse, the former troubadour Foulques. In 1206 Diego of Osma and his canon, the future Saint Dominic, began a programme of conversion in Languedoc; as part of this, Catholic-Cathar public debates were held at Verfeil, Servian, Pamiers, Montréal and elsewhere.
In January 1208 the papal legate, Pierre de Castelnau was sent to meet the ruler of the area, Count Raymond VI of Toulouse. Known for excommunicating noblemen who protected the Cathars, Pierre de Castelnau excommunicated Raymond as an abettor of heresy. Pierre was murdered near Saint Gilles Abbey in 1208 on his way back to Rome, allegedly by a knight in the service of Count Raymond. As soon as he heard of the murder, the Pope ordered his legates to preach a Crusade against the Cathars. The Pope then called a formal crusade, appointing a series of leaders to head the assault. There followed over forty years of war against the Cathars and their allies in the Languedoc. See Albigensian Crusade.[[the start of the henious genocide of the Roman Catholic church against the Cathars by order of Pope Innocent III]].
This war threw the whole of the nobility of the north of France against that of the south, possibly instigated by a papal decree stating that all land owned by Cathars could be confiscated at will. As the area was full of Cathar sympathisers, this made the entire area a target for French nobles looking to gain new lands. The French barons of the north flocked south to do battle for the Church.
The crusader army came under the command, both spiritual and military, of the papal legate Arnaud-Amaury, Abbot of Cîteaux. In the first significant engagement of the war, the town of Béziers was taken on 22 July 1209. Arnaud, the Cistercian abbot-commander is said to have been asked how to tell Cathar from Catholic. His reply, recorded by a fellow Cistercian, was "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius." - "Kill them all, the Lord will recognise His own"[1]. The doors of the church of St Mary Magdalene were broken down and the occupants slaughtered. 7,000 people died there including women and children. Elsewhere in the town many more thousands were mutilated and killed. Prisoners were blinded, dragged behind horses, and used for target practice. The town was razed. Arnaud, the abbot-commander, wrote to his master, the Pope: "Today your Holiness, twenty thousand citizens were put to the sword, regardless of rank, age, or sex." [2]. The population of Béziers was then probably no more than 15,000 but with local refugees seeking shelter within the city walls, the number claimed, 20,000, is possible.
It was after the success of the siege of Carcassonne which followed the massacre at Beziers, that Simon de Montfort was appointed to lead the Crusader army. Prominent opponents of the Crusaders were Raymond-Roger de Trencavel, viscount of Carcassonne, and his feudal overlord Peter II, the king of Aragon, who owned fiefdoms and had other vassals in the area. Peter died fighting against the crusade on September 12, 1213 at the Battle of Muret.
The war ended in the Treaty of Paris (1229), by which the king of France dispossessed the house of Toulouse of the greater part of its fiefs, and that of the Trencavels (Viscounts of Béziers and Carcassonne) of the whole of their fiefs. The independence of the princes of the Languedoc was at an end. But in spite of the wholesale massacre of Cathars during the war, Catharism was not extinguished.
In 1215, the bishops of the Catholic Church met at the Fourth Council of the Lateran under Pope Innocent. One of the key goals of the council was to combat heresy.
The Inquisition was established in 1229 to root out the Cathars. Operating in the south at Toulouse, Albi, Carcassonne and other towns during the whole of the 13th century, and a great part of the 14th, it succeeded in extirpating the movement. From May 1243 to March 1244, the Cathar fortress of Montségur was besieged by the troops of the seneschal of Carcassonne and the archbishop of Narbonne. On March 16, 1244 a large and symbolically important massacre took place, where over 200 Cathar perfects were thrown into an enormous fire at the prat des cramats near the foot of the castle. Moreover, the church decreed severe chastisement against all laymen suspected of sympathy with Cathars (Council of Narbonne, 1235; see the Bulla of Innocent IV Ad exstirpanda, 1252)." .[source - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, and reference, "Foxe's Book of Martyrs" by Foxe, a famous classic religious history book]
So as shown, the Roman Catholic church engaged in a henious genocide clearly showing them to be a false religion that ignored the basic human right of freedom of conscience and belief. They claim to believe in the Bible and God's (YHWH's) Son, Jesus (Yeshua), but by their wrong actions clearly show they are NOT in agreement with the Bible which clearly says at 1 John 4:20, "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" (AV). In fact, Jesus (Yeshua), the Isa, plainly said at Matthew 5:44, "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (AV).
LARGEST GENOCIDE OF ALL HISTORY BY THE MUSLIMS - THE FACTS:
Let's look at the facts, the reality, in keeping with John 8:32, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (AV).
Now here are the facts, the reality, of the murder, genocide of over 80 million endividuals in India by Muslims, <<"With the invasion of India by Mahmud Ghazni about 1000 A.D., began the Muslim invasions into the Indian subcontinent and they lasted for several centuries. The Muslim invasions continued even when the Muslims were ruling India, like the invasion of the Mongols during the reign of the Khiljis or the invasion of the Mughals in the early sixteenth Century when the Lodis were ruling Delhi. The last notable invasion of the Muslims from outside was the invasion of Nadir Shah in 1739, during which he unleashed a great horror on the native population.
During these seven hundred years of Muslim invasions and their conquest and rule of India, the Hindus were the greatest sufferers. It is difficult to estimate the number of Hindus who lost their lives during these campaigns, the number of Hindus who lost their lives in the religious persecution perpetrated on the native population by the Muslim rulers or the number of Hindus who were forcibly converted to Islam.
According to Prof. K.S. Lal, the author of the Growth of Muslim population in India, the Hindu population decreased by 80 million between 1000 AD, the year Mahmud Ghazni invaded India and 1525 AD, a year before the battle of Panipat.
One can safely add another 20 million Hindus to this list to account for the number that were killed during the Mughal rule or the rule of the Muslim rulers in the Deccan plateau. By all known accounts of world history, as pointed out by Koenard Elst in his book the Negationism in India, destruction of about 100 million hindus is perhaps the biggest holocaust in the whole world history." [source - The biggest holocaust in world history by Jayaram V]>>. Clearly showing that the Muslims were responsible for the greatest genocide in all of human history, but let's look at more facts with respect this crime against humanity.
Let's look at a quote from Chapter 5 of a history book by India's greatest historian, K.S. Lal, see information about him in the footnote at end of quote, <<"Factors Contributing to the Growth of Muslim Population, Conversions -
Islam has spread in many parts of the world through wars and campaigns[[Its spread was not peaceful but by the proverbial sword]]. In the medieval Indian chronicles the sovereign is always mentioned as 'the king of Islam', the territories of his empire are referred to as the 'land of Islam', its armies as 'soldiers of Islam', and its religious and Judicial head as 'Shaikh-ul-Islam'. The monarch was committed to make Islam the true basis of private and public life through the enforcement of the Shariat and to convert the people to the "true faith". In India the Muslim rulers' keenness to obtain converts in war is vouched by many chroniclers. The Tarikh-i-Muhammadi gives a clear idea of the psychology of the rulers in this regard. Its author was a contemporary of Sultan Nasiruddin Mahmud, the son of Firoz Tughlaq. He says that while fighting Rai Subir (Sumer) in the vicinity of Iraj, the Sultan thought: 'If I will give orders to the army to fight (outright), they will not leave even a trace of the Kafirs [[none Muslims]] in the region, but if I shall advance slowly, then probably these people will agree to embrace Islam."3
What professor Mohammad Habib writes concerning the Mongol applies equally to Turkish expeditions. "In 1330 the country was invaded by the Mongols who indulged in arson, rape and murder throughout the Valley (of Kashmir). The king and the Brahmans fled away but among the inhabitants who remained... Muslim ways of life were gradually adopted by the people as the only alternative..."4 Thus warfare brought captives, and captives were made Musalmans. Such was not the situation only in the North; in South also such methods of conversion prevailed, especially during wars between Bahmani and Vijayanagar kingdoms. Throughout the medieval period such wars were common, and forcible conversions [[Conversions by the proverbial sword.]] helped in the rapid growth of Muslim population.
The rulers used force and persuasion in equal measure. Their resources were great. They could give jobs, honours, and titles and many other economic concessions and status benefits as inducements to conversion, and many people would have taken advantage of these facilities. We have referred to Mubarak Khalji's encouragement to Hindus to accept Islam by presenting the convert with a robe and a gold ornament. People used to be converted in this fashion right up to the reign of Aurangzeb and perhaps even thereafter. There were other methods too.
The Banshasmriti of Satya Krishna Biswas states that in Bengal the Rajas and Zamindars who could not deposit land revenue by a certain date had to convert to Muhammadanism. The Banshasmriti narrates an isolated incident, but as this regulation of the thirteenth century had been revived by Murshid Quli Khan, or had continued right up to his times, many local Rajas and Zamindars would have been converted in the course of four centuries, for full payment of land tax by due date was not always possible. Firoz Tughlaq (1351-88) instructed his revenue collectors to convert Hindus to Islam.5 He rescinded the Jiziyah to lure people to become Muhammadans, and this measure brought large additions to Muslim population. In his Fatuhat-i-Firoz Shahi, Sultan Firoz Tughlaq candidly writes: "I encouraged my infidel subjects to embrace the religion of the prophet and I proclaimed that everyone who repeated the Kalima of tauhid and became Musalman should be exempt from Jiziyah... Information of this came to the ears of the people at large, and great number of Hindus presented themselves, and were admitted to the honour of Islam. Thus they came forward day by day from every quarter, go on coming to this day, and adopting the faith, are exonerated from the Jiziyah, and are favoured with Khilats and presents."6 [[Taxed enslaved subjects that would NOT convert to try and force their conversion; i.e., no affording of the basic human right of freedom of conscience]]. [source - Studies in Medieval Indian History, pp.171-172 by K.S. Lal]>>.>>>.
CONCLUSION:
FIRST, Debates are worthless with regard to establishing reality, the facts, in line with ultimate truth.
SECOND, Neither debater in the instance detailed in "Qur'an and Bible in the light of Science," by "soomiasaquib.” Really knew his subject as clearly previously shown.
THIRD, Neither of the two largest religions (really cults) can be the genuine one as both have promoted genocides and a lust for violence from time to time.
FOURTH, The genuine true religion is the one which has the genuine true followers of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ as shown by their abhorrence of violence and their efforts to be footstep followers of him.
To learn more, check out the following:
[1] religioustruths.proboards59.com/ An Educational Referral Forum
[2] www.network54.com/Forum/403209 A Forum Devoted to Exposing The False Religion of Islam
[3] jude3.proboards92.com/ A Free-Speech Forum For All
[4] www.freewebs.com/iris_the_preacher My web site.
Your Friend in Christ Iris89
INTRODUCTION:
FIRST, The purpose of debate is to win an argument, NOT find ultimate Truth, the reality.
SECOND, On analyzing most debates carefully, it can usually readily be seen that neither debater has carefully considered the facts other than superficially with respects only to his/her plans to win the debate. Debaters just arrange what sounds good with a view to winning a debate - NOT for arriving at ultimate Truth.
THIRD, Only unbiased objective research leads to ultimate Truth.
FOOLISHNESS OF DEBATES:
FIRST, I have listened to many debates and have found them foolish with respect leading to ultimate Truth - they never do. But in spite of this reality, some are even so foolish as to write books about debates.
This reality was driven home for me many years ago when my husband was pursuing his first degree at a university in Tennessee USA which had a member of the Church of Christ as the president. This college president strongly believed that drinking of alcoholic beverages was very sinful and called for a debate between pro and anti drinking groups.
For the anti drinking group, he choose his minister to be the lead debater.
For the pro drinking group, he choose a student that was a complete Bible illiterate who was known to be a big drinker. This poor student right off knew he had been 'set up' and came to my none alcohol drinking minister husband for assistance. After some 'arm twisting' my husband agreed to be on his team.
On debate day, the anti drinking group led off. The Church of Christ minister went into a long winded diatribe about the evils and sins of drinking and selling alcoholic beverages. My husband quietly sat with the pro drinking group listening to this boring diatribe.
Finally my husband raised his hand and was recognized by the Church of Christ minister. He said to him, I want to be sure I understand what you are saying. I believe you said that using and/or selling alcoholic beverages is sinful and wrong.
To this, the Church of Christ minister answered to the effect that his understanding was entirely correct.
Then my husband asked him another question. He asked if the makers/manufacturers of alcoholic beverages is more sinful and wrong than the users and sellers.
To this question, the Church of Christ minister, launched into a long diatribe denouncing the makers as the most sinful and wrong that lasted for quite some time.
When he finished, my husband said, I would like to draw your attention to who according to what you have said would be one of the most sinful and evil individuals of all time, and started reading John 2:3-10, "And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. 4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. 5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. 6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. 7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it. 9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now." (Authorized King James Bible, AV). And then he said, that was Jesus (Yeshua) Christ's first miracle, but according to what you said, he is one of the most sinful and wicked men of all times.
Complete silence in university auditorium for a few seconds, then pandemonium broke loose. My husband had clearly one the debate for the pro alcoholic group [even though he is an absolute none drinker.].
However, in no way had my husband's actions in winning the debate lead to ultimate Truth!
I mentioned this incident to show how silly debates really are and that they do NOT lead to ultimate Truth.
SECOND, one writer, writing under the pseudonym "soomiasaquib" in a short article called "Qur'an and Bible in the light of Science," summarized a debate between Dr. William Campbell and Dr. Zakir Naik, that on close examination clearly shows neither debater really was interested in arriving at ultimate truth, but only in winning the debate.
The setting was that Dr. Zakir Naik was a member of Islam, and Dr. William Campbell was a member to taxonomy classification group 2 of so called Christians.
Now some may ask what are the taxonomy classifications of the two very different groups called Christian. Here they are in brief, but will be covered more extensively later.
Group 1 - the genuine (true) followers of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ do NOT involve themselves with war and violence or meddle in politics, and try to follow to the 'letter' the words and commandments of Christ. Also, they have NO creedal doctrines and/or traditions. [[genuine true followers of Christ]]
Group 2 - the false claimants of being followers of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ involve themselves with war and violence and meddle in politics while falsely claiming to be followers of Christ, the Prince of Peace. The give 'lip' service with respect following to the 'letter' the words and commandments of Christ - the term Sunday Christian aptly fits them. They have their creedal doctrines and/or traditions and assign more importance to these than the Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), the Bible. [[followers of Christ in name only]]
One of the basis of this debate was, per "soomiasaquib,” <<<“Dr. Campbell wrote a book with the title "The Qur'an and the Bible in the light of History and Science" in which he has asserted that Qur'anic verses
are unscientific where as the passages from the Bible are scientific. In his book, Dr. Campbell also
challenged the Muslims to refute his assertions. This challenge was accepted by Dr. Zakir Naik,
President of Islamic Research Foundation, Mumbai, India. Dr. Naik, barely 34 years old, has
sacrificed his medical practice and is actively involved in Da'wah work (conveying the Message of
Islam) all over the world. He explains the teachings of Islam in the light of the teachings of the Qur'an,” [source - "Qur'an and Bible in the light of Science," by "soomiasaquib.”]>>>.
First off this argument in fallacious from start to finish since the Qur’an, like the Book of Mormon is nothing but a distorted Bible knockoff made up of many ideas plagiarized from mostly the Bible and the Talmud. As revealed by renown German Researcher, Christoph Luxenberg [], in an article called “Renown German Researcher, Christoph Luxenberg, Reveals Qur'an a Knockoff Of The Bible:” by Iris the Preacher,
<<<” The Renown German Researcher, Christoph Luxenberg, a world renown linguistic scholar, in his book clearly reveals that the Quran is nothing but a distorted knockoff of the inspired word of the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael, creator of all there is, the Bible. Here is just one example, but the interested individual can find many many pages of similars in his book.
Let's first look at what the Quran (Koran) says at Sura 3:47:
Sura 3:47, "She said, "My Lord, how can I have a son, when no man has touched me?" He said, "GOD thus creates whatever He wills. To have anything done, He simply says to it, `Be,' and it is."
[3 parallel translations of Sura 3:47:
YUSUFALI: She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
PICKTHAL: She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
SHAKIR: She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.]
And, Sura 3:48 says, ""He will teach him the scripture, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel." Interestingly here the Quran (Koran) actually speaks of the first five (5) books of the Bible, the Torah; yet today many Muslims rail against the Bible from which their book the Quran (Koran) was plagiarized from.
[3 parallel translations of Sura 3:48:
YUSUFALI: "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
PICKTHAL: And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel,
SHAKIR: And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat and the Injeel. ]
Now the Bible says at Luke 1:35, "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God." (American Standard Version; ASV)."
A short review of his book can be found in, "HUGOYE: JOURNAL OF SYRIAC STUDIES," book review of Christoph Luxenberg (ps.) Die syro-aramaeische Lesart des Koran; Ein Beitrag zur Entschlüsselung der Qur'ansprache. Berlin, Germany: Das Arabische Buch, First Edition, 2000. Pp. ix + 306, Vol. 6, No. 1, January 2003.
[http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye/Vol6No1/HV6N1PRPhenixHorn.html ]
But to really get specific facts in great detail with advanced literary analysis one must read his book of 306 pages.” [source - “Renown German Researcher, Christoph Luxenberg, Reveals Qur'an a Knockoff Of The Bible:” by Iris the Preacher]>>>.
As can readily be seen, Sura 3:48 was STOLEN from the Bible as was much of the remainder in the Qur’an so do discuss which is more scientific, the distorted Bible knockoff the Qur’an or the Bible is the height of utter foolishness. Its like saying counterfeit money is better than the original. This of course is just dumb and foolish and need be given no further attention.
Another basis of this debate per "soomiasaquib” was, <<<”posed to him was widely appreciated. On a humorous note, Dr. Naik challenged Dr. Campbell to
prove himself a true Christian by just reading the phrase 'one hundred rupees' in the seventeen languages of India as is depicted on a hundred rupee note of India - in this context, Dr. Naik referred to the claim of the Bible that true Christians can speak in new foreign languages. Dr. Campbell was speechless at this. He later returned the hundred rupee note when Dr. Naik presented him with a copy of his newly released book, 'The Qur'an and Modern Science - Compatible or Incompatible?.' “ [source - "Qur'an and Bible in the light of Science," by "soomiasaquib.”]>>>.
This was not really humorous, but pathetic as it clearly showed that neither Doctor really knew what he was talking about. The Bible clearly shows what they were referring to was a miracle that occurred in the early Christian congregation and which was recorded at Acts 2:5-12, as follows, “Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speaking in his own language.[[The hearers, being individuals of many nations and languages were clearly confounded since each heard the Galileans speaking IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE – NOT just someone speaking in another language.]] 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying, Behold, are not all these that speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, in Judaea and Cappadocia, in Pontus and Asia, 10 in Phrygia and Pamphylia, in Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues the mighty works of God. 12 And they were all amazed, and were perplexed, saying one to another, What meaneth this?” (American Standard Version: ASV)
Interestingly both Doctors overlooked the point that individuals in the audience at this time each simultaneously heard them speaking in HIS/HER own language – a true miracle. Also, the overlooked the fact that miraculous gifts of the spirit such as this were only bestowed through the apostles and/or in their presence as clearly shown at Acts 8:14-19, “Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.” (Authorized King James Bible, AV). And Acts 19:1-7, “And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve.” (AV). And Acts 10:44-46, “While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,” (AV).
Of course these miraculous gifts were only in the early congregation, but have since LONG passed away as shown by 1 Corinthians 13:8-10, “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (AV), so clearly neither Doctor really knew his subject. Yet one of the Doctors had the audacity to even write a book about the dumb debate – simply unbelievable and foolish.
TAXONOMIES OF THE TWO SO CALLED CHRISTIAN GROUPS IN DETAIL:
The so called Christian religion consist of over 33,000+ sects and/or groups all believing and propagating different things which is the promoting of many false religions under the broad umbrella of the taxonomy of being Christian. However, it should be obvious to any thinking individual that 33,000+ different ways can NOT all be correct, so what we in effect have is a very large maze that one must transverse to get to the real truth since all but one would only be dead ends – the Devils plan to confuse and lead astray.
Of course, in order to do this, one can NOT examine each in detail, but must therefore seek to learn what the Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), Creator of all that exist, the Bible, really teaches. But this is no easy task.
But let's consider the two taxonomies or distinct classifications of what is commonly referred to as Christianity. Realizing that some view gaining salvation as and easy task and feel that belonging to any old religion is acceptable to Almighty God (YHWH), but is it? Let's look at some facts, realities in keeping with John 8:32, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (Authorized King James Bible; AV).
Now let's look at the two different taxonomies and carefully note what sets them apart from each other:
Group 1 - the genuine (true) followers of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ do NOT involve themselves with war and violence or meddle in politics, and try to follow to the 'letter' the words and commandments of Christ. Also, they have NO creedal doctrines and/or traditions.
Group 2 - the false claimants of being followers of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ involve themselves with war and violence and meddle in politics while falsely claiming to be followers of Christ, the Prince of Peace. The give 'lip' service with respect following to the 'letter' the words and commandments of Christ - the term Sunday Christian aptly fits them. They have their creedal doctrines and/or traditions and assign more importance to these than the Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), the Bible.
As can readily be seen, Group 1 does not involve itself with nationalism and racism but readily recognizes the Biblical reality of no partiality as shown at Romans 2:11 and elsewhere, "for there is no respect of persons with God." (American Standard Version: ASV). Also, this group strives to follow the 'letter' of the commandments of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ and Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), Creator of all that exist, the Bible; and NOT the creeds and creedal doctrines of men who give themselves high sounding titles.
Whereas, Group 2 only gives 'lip service' to commandments of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ and Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), Creator of all that exist, the Bible. The self evident truth being:
That it matters not what their holy book says be they Group 2 so called Christians and/or some none so called Christian group such as Islam, Hinduism, etc. It is not what either the Bible or the Bible takeoff the Qur'an actually say, but how religious leaders be they priest and/or imams or muftis or what ever teach the people is the interpretation of what is written either in the Bible or the bible takeoff the Qur'an that matters and governs actions. It matters not what the Bible and/or the Bible takeoff really say. People go by what they are taught by their religious leaders. Take the genocide committed by the Roman Catholic Church at the direction of their supreme religious leader, the pope, what mattered was not that the Bible clearly said at Exodus 20:13, "Thou shalt not kill." (Authorized King James Bible; AV), but what their religious leaders told them. Therefore, it is the religion at fault, irregardless of what their particular holy book, be it the Bible or the Bible takeoff the Qur'an may say. Neither in so called Christianity or in Islam are most individuals actions really governed in any way by what their particular holy book really says, but they are governed by the interpretation of their religious leaders. Thus, knowing this reality, one would be either just plain stupid and/or dumb to even bother looking at a particular religion's holy book and expect the members would conform to it. Take the Rig Vede and find me for example a Hindu actually conforming to it instead of the interpretation given to it by his religious leaders, like looking for a needle in the haystack per K.S. Lal, India's greatest historian.
So, clearly, it is NOT my taxonomy but reality that sets the two groups clearly apart as separate classifications. Also, it is not my opinion that sets the two separate groups that are called "Christians" apart, but clearly the diametrically opposed actions of the two groups.
In fact, the Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), the Bible, clearly demonstrates how difficult it really is not to be mislead by the Devil and the religious leaders of evil false religions under control of the god of this system of things. This was clearly shown by Almighty God's (YHWH's) Son, Jesus (Yeshua), in answering a question asked of him at Luke 13:23-30, "And one said unto him, Lord, are they few that are saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in by the narrow door: for many, I say unto you, shall seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, open to us; and he shall answer and say to you, I know you not whence ye are; 26 then shall ye begin to say, We did eat and drink in thy presence, and thou didst teach in our streets; 27 and he shall say, I tell you, I know not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without. 29 And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, there are last who shall be first, and there are first who shall be last." (ASV).
Also, Jesus (Yeshua) clearly showed his genuine (true) followers would be few in number compared to the total number of mankind. Let's consider both Luke 13:24 and Matthew 7:13-14, it is in both of these that the road followed by true believers would be narrow and cramped, Luke 13:24, "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." (Authorized King James Bible: AV); And Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, abroad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (AV); thereby, clearly showing few would be entering the narrow gate "which leadeth unto life." In reality, it will be difficult for even true Christians to enter as testified to at 1 Peter 4:18, "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear." (AV). In order to enter, we must have the right sort of guide, Luke 1:79, "To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace." (AV). Now, if one picks the wrong group, just because it is popular or the so called 'one to belong to in a community' and not because of Bible Truths, there is an important warning given at Matthew 15:14, "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." (AV). In fact, being with the wrong group can mean you are NOT having fellowship with the Son of God, Jesus (Yeshua) as testified to at 1 John 1:6, "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not [have] the truth." (AV). This danger is made abundantly clear at Luke 12:32 when Jesus (Yeshua) spoke of his true followers as a little flock and not a large one, "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." (AV). Simply stated, his true followers will be relatively few in number which should cause all sincere individuals to question whether mainstream religion with its vast membership is heading for the narrow gate!
Now being this is the case, it behooves all genuine (true) followers of Jesus (Yeshua) to show neighbor love and warn their neighbors of the need to seek genuine salvation and to get OUT OF EVIL FALSE RELIGION regardless of what it is called or how long their families and friends have been members of it. This would be required by what Jesus (Yeshua) said at Matthew 22:37-40, "And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets." (ASV).
We will consider how this love of neighbor requires all genuine (true) followers to warn their neighbors of evil false religion by exposing it for what it is.
PROOF AS SHOWN BY THE WORLD’S TWO LARGEST CULTS:
As brought out in the definition of Group 1, they do NOT support violence and wars; whereas, Group 2, not only support violence but in the case of many in Islam, they lust for it, and within Christendom, the Roman Catholic Church has been responsible for much violence. An article, “Only a False Religion Commits Genocide Against Others:” by Iris the Preacher clearly brings out with facts that both of these groups have committed major genocides. Members of Islam have murdered between 80,000,000 and 100,000,000 in genocides; whereas, the Roman Catholic Church has murdered well over 1,200,000 in genocides. So of course neither can be the genuine religion, but both are just large false religious cults having false prophets such a Muhammad and the Popes.
Let’s look at an exert from “Only a False Religion Commits Genocide Against Others.”
<<<” Both Catholicism and Islam have committed genocide's so both are false religions. Let's look at the facts in brief:
<<"The Cathers found widespread popularity among peasants and artisans. They respected women, who played a major role in the movement. Alarmed at the success of Catharism, the church founded the Inquisition and launched the Albigensian Crusade in the thirteenth century to exterminate them." [source -http://www.frostcloud.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5163 ]>>. So Catholicism is a false religion, and more detail will be presented to prove this statement.
<<"Historian Will Durant wrote in The Story of Civilization (1972) that the Muslim conquest of India was "probably the bloodiest story in history." The number of people killed is estimated based on the Muslim chronicles and demographic calculations. K.S. Lal estimated in his book The Growth of Muslim Population in India that between 1000 CE and 1500 CE, the population of Hindus decreased by 80 million. The legacy of Islamic conquest of South Asia is a hotly debated issue even today." [sources - "The Story of Civilization - 1972 - by Will Durant, and "The Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India" by India's greatest historian, K.S. Lal]>>. So Islam is a false religion, and more detail will be presented to prove this statement.
GENOCIDE OF THE CATHERS BY THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH - THE FACTS:
Let's look at the facts, the reality, in keeping with John 8:32, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (Authorized King James Bible; AV).
<<"Catharism was a religious movement with dualist Christian and Gnostic elements that appeared in the Languedoc in the eleventh century and flourished in the 12th century. It was condemned by the contemporary Roman Catholic Church either as a heretical Christian sect or sometimes as a non-Christian religion. It existed throughout much of Western Europe, but its focus was in Languedoc and surrounding areas - Occitania - what is now southern France.
The name Cathar most likely originated from Greek ?a?a???, "pure ones". One of its first recorded uses is Eckbert von Schönau, who wrote (in Latin) on heretics from Cologne in 1181: Hos nostra germania catharos appellat ("In Germany we call these people Cathars").
The Cathars were also sometimes referred to as the Albigensians. This name originates from the end of the 12th century, and was used by the chronicler Geoffroy du Breuil of Vigeois in 1181. The name refers to the town of Albi (the ancient Albiga) northeast of Toulouse. The designation is misleading (although Albi was one among several early focal points of Catharism): the movement had no centre and is known to have flourished in areas that are now parts of Italy, Germany, Northern France and Spain as well as the Languedoc." .[source - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia]
The churches' genocide against the Cathars from start to finish, <<"In 1147, Pope Eugene III sent a legate to the affected district in order to arrest the progress of the Cathars. The few isolated successes of Bernard of Clairvaux could not obscure the poor results of this mission, which clearly showed the power of the sect in the Languedoc at that period. The missions of Cardinal Peter of St. Chrysogonus to Toulouse and the Toulousain in 1178, and of Henry, cardinal-bishop of Albano, in 1180-1181, obtained merely momentary successes. Henry of Albano's armed expedition, which took the stronghold at Lavaur, did not extinguish the movement.
Decisions of Catholic Church councils against the Cathars at this period - in particular, those of the Council of Tours (1163) and of the Third Council of the Lateran (1179) - had scarcely more effect. By the time Pope Innocent III came to power in 1198, he had resolved to suppress the Cathars.
Saint Dominic encountered the Cathars in 1203 while travelling, and argued with them, concluding that only preachers who displayed real sanctity, humility and asceticism could win over convinced Cathar believers. His conviction led eventually to the establishment of the Dominican Order in 1216. The order was to live up to the terms of his famous rebuke, "Zeal must be met by zeal, humility by humility, false sanctity by real sanctity, preaching falsehood by preaching truth."
At first Pope Innocent III tried pacific conversion, and sent a number of legates into the affected regions. They had to contend not only with the Cathars, the nobles who protected them, and the people who venerated them, but also with the bishops of the district, who rejected the extraordinary authority which the Pope had conferred upon his legates. In 1204, Innocent III suspended the authority of certain bishops in the south of France; in 1205 he appointed a new and vigorous bishop of Toulouse, the former troubadour Foulques. In 1206 Diego of Osma and his canon, the future Saint Dominic, began a programme of conversion in Languedoc; as part of this, Catholic-Cathar public debates were held at Verfeil, Servian, Pamiers, Montréal and elsewhere.
In January 1208 the papal legate, Pierre de Castelnau was sent to meet the ruler of the area, Count Raymond VI of Toulouse. Known for excommunicating noblemen who protected the Cathars, Pierre de Castelnau excommunicated Raymond as an abettor of heresy. Pierre was murdered near Saint Gilles Abbey in 1208 on his way back to Rome, allegedly by a knight in the service of Count Raymond. As soon as he heard of the murder, the Pope ordered his legates to preach a Crusade against the Cathars. The Pope then called a formal crusade, appointing a series of leaders to head the assault. There followed over forty years of war against the Cathars and their allies in the Languedoc. See Albigensian Crusade.[[the start of the henious genocide of the Roman Catholic church against the Cathars by order of Pope Innocent III]].
This war threw the whole of the nobility of the north of France against that of the south, possibly instigated by a papal decree stating that all land owned by Cathars could be confiscated at will. As the area was full of Cathar sympathisers, this made the entire area a target for French nobles looking to gain new lands. The French barons of the north flocked south to do battle for the Church.
The crusader army came under the command, both spiritual and military, of the papal legate Arnaud-Amaury, Abbot of Cîteaux. In the first significant engagement of the war, the town of Béziers was taken on 22 July 1209. Arnaud, the Cistercian abbot-commander is said to have been asked how to tell Cathar from Catholic. His reply, recorded by a fellow Cistercian, was "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius." - "Kill them all, the Lord will recognise His own"[1]. The doors of the church of St Mary Magdalene were broken down and the occupants slaughtered. 7,000 people died there including women and children. Elsewhere in the town many more thousands were mutilated and killed. Prisoners were blinded, dragged behind horses, and used for target practice. The town was razed. Arnaud, the abbot-commander, wrote to his master, the Pope: "Today your Holiness, twenty thousand citizens were put to the sword, regardless of rank, age, or sex." [2]. The population of Béziers was then probably no more than 15,000 but with local refugees seeking shelter within the city walls, the number claimed, 20,000, is possible.
It was after the success of the siege of Carcassonne which followed the massacre at Beziers, that Simon de Montfort was appointed to lead the Crusader army. Prominent opponents of the Crusaders were Raymond-Roger de Trencavel, viscount of Carcassonne, and his feudal overlord Peter II, the king of Aragon, who owned fiefdoms and had other vassals in the area. Peter died fighting against the crusade on September 12, 1213 at the Battle of Muret.
The war ended in the Treaty of Paris (1229), by which the king of France dispossessed the house of Toulouse of the greater part of its fiefs, and that of the Trencavels (Viscounts of Béziers and Carcassonne) of the whole of their fiefs. The independence of the princes of the Languedoc was at an end. But in spite of the wholesale massacre of Cathars during the war, Catharism was not extinguished.
In 1215, the bishops of the Catholic Church met at the Fourth Council of the Lateran under Pope Innocent. One of the key goals of the council was to combat heresy.
The Inquisition was established in 1229 to root out the Cathars. Operating in the south at Toulouse, Albi, Carcassonne and other towns during the whole of the 13th century, and a great part of the 14th, it succeeded in extirpating the movement. From May 1243 to March 1244, the Cathar fortress of Montségur was besieged by the troops of the seneschal of Carcassonne and the archbishop of Narbonne. On March 16, 1244 a large and symbolically important massacre took place, where over 200 Cathar perfects were thrown into an enormous fire at the prat des cramats near the foot of the castle. Moreover, the church decreed severe chastisement against all laymen suspected of sympathy with Cathars (Council of Narbonne, 1235; see the Bulla of Innocent IV Ad exstirpanda, 1252)." .[source - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, and reference, "Foxe's Book of Martyrs" by Foxe, a famous classic religious history book]
So as shown, the Roman Catholic church engaged in a henious genocide clearly showing them to be a false religion that ignored the basic human right of freedom of conscience and belief. They claim to believe in the Bible and God's (YHWH's) Son, Jesus (Yeshua), but by their wrong actions clearly show they are NOT in agreement with the Bible which clearly says at 1 John 4:20, "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" (AV). In fact, Jesus (Yeshua), the Isa, plainly said at Matthew 5:44, "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (AV).
LARGEST GENOCIDE OF ALL HISTORY BY THE MUSLIMS - THE FACTS:
Let's look at the facts, the reality, in keeping with John 8:32, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (AV).
Now here are the facts, the reality, of the murder, genocide of over 80 million endividuals in India by Muslims, <<"With the invasion of India by Mahmud Ghazni about 1000 A.D., began the Muslim invasions into the Indian subcontinent and they lasted for several centuries. The Muslim invasions continued even when the Muslims were ruling India, like the invasion of the Mongols during the reign of the Khiljis or the invasion of the Mughals in the early sixteenth Century when the Lodis were ruling Delhi. The last notable invasion of the Muslims from outside was the invasion of Nadir Shah in 1739, during which he unleashed a great horror on the native population.
During these seven hundred years of Muslim invasions and their conquest and rule of India, the Hindus were the greatest sufferers. It is difficult to estimate the number of Hindus who lost their lives during these campaigns, the number of Hindus who lost their lives in the religious persecution perpetrated on the native population by the Muslim rulers or the number of Hindus who were forcibly converted to Islam.
According to Prof. K.S. Lal, the author of the Growth of Muslim population in India, the Hindu population decreased by 80 million between 1000 AD, the year Mahmud Ghazni invaded India and 1525 AD, a year before the battle of Panipat.
One can safely add another 20 million Hindus to this list to account for the number that were killed during the Mughal rule or the rule of the Muslim rulers in the Deccan plateau. By all known accounts of world history, as pointed out by Koenard Elst in his book the Negationism in India, destruction of about 100 million hindus is perhaps the biggest holocaust in the whole world history." [source - The biggest holocaust in world history by Jayaram V]>>. Clearly showing that the Muslims were responsible for the greatest genocide in all of human history, but let's look at more facts with respect this crime against humanity.
Let's look at a quote from Chapter 5 of a history book by India's greatest historian, K.S. Lal, see information about him in the footnote at end of quote, <<"Factors Contributing to the Growth of Muslim Population, Conversions -
Islam has spread in many parts of the world through wars and campaigns[[Its spread was not peaceful but by the proverbial sword]]. In the medieval Indian chronicles the sovereign is always mentioned as 'the king of Islam', the territories of his empire are referred to as the 'land of Islam', its armies as 'soldiers of Islam', and its religious and Judicial head as 'Shaikh-ul-Islam'. The monarch was committed to make Islam the true basis of private and public life through the enforcement of the Shariat and to convert the people to the "true faith". In India the Muslim rulers' keenness to obtain converts in war is vouched by many chroniclers. The Tarikh-i-Muhammadi gives a clear idea of the psychology of the rulers in this regard. Its author was a contemporary of Sultan Nasiruddin Mahmud, the son of Firoz Tughlaq. He says that while fighting Rai Subir (Sumer) in the vicinity of Iraj, the Sultan thought: 'If I will give orders to the army to fight (outright), they will not leave even a trace of the Kafirs [[none Muslims]] in the region, but if I shall advance slowly, then probably these people will agree to embrace Islam."3
What professor Mohammad Habib writes concerning the Mongol applies equally to Turkish expeditions. "In 1330 the country was invaded by the Mongols who indulged in arson, rape and murder throughout the Valley (of Kashmir). The king and the Brahmans fled away but among the inhabitants who remained... Muslim ways of life were gradually adopted by the people as the only alternative..."4 Thus warfare brought captives, and captives were made Musalmans. Such was not the situation only in the North; in South also such methods of conversion prevailed, especially during wars between Bahmani and Vijayanagar kingdoms. Throughout the medieval period such wars were common, and forcible conversions [[Conversions by the proverbial sword.]] helped in the rapid growth of Muslim population.
The rulers used force and persuasion in equal measure. Their resources were great. They could give jobs, honours, and titles and many other economic concessions and status benefits as inducements to conversion, and many people would have taken advantage of these facilities. We have referred to Mubarak Khalji's encouragement to Hindus to accept Islam by presenting the convert with a robe and a gold ornament. People used to be converted in this fashion right up to the reign of Aurangzeb and perhaps even thereafter. There were other methods too.
The Banshasmriti of Satya Krishna Biswas states that in Bengal the Rajas and Zamindars who could not deposit land revenue by a certain date had to convert to Muhammadanism. The Banshasmriti narrates an isolated incident, but as this regulation of the thirteenth century had been revived by Murshid Quli Khan, or had continued right up to his times, many local Rajas and Zamindars would have been converted in the course of four centuries, for full payment of land tax by due date was not always possible. Firoz Tughlaq (1351-88) instructed his revenue collectors to convert Hindus to Islam.5 He rescinded the Jiziyah to lure people to become Muhammadans, and this measure brought large additions to Muslim population. In his Fatuhat-i-Firoz Shahi, Sultan Firoz Tughlaq candidly writes: "I encouraged my infidel subjects to embrace the religion of the prophet and I proclaimed that everyone who repeated the Kalima of tauhid and became Musalman should be exempt from Jiziyah... Information of this came to the ears of the people at large, and great number of Hindus presented themselves, and were admitted to the honour of Islam. Thus they came forward day by day from every quarter, go on coming to this day, and adopting the faith, are exonerated from the Jiziyah, and are favoured with Khilats and presents."6 [[Taxed enslaved subjects that would NOT convert to try and force their conversion; i.e., no affording of the basic human right of freedom of conscience]]. [source - Studies in Medieval Indian History, pp.171-172 by K.S. Lal]>>.>>>.
CONCLUSION:
FIRST, Debates are worthless with regard to establishing reality, the facts, in line with ultimate truth.
SECOND, Neither debater in the instance detailed in "Qur'an and Bible in the light of Science," by "soomiasaquib.” Really knew his subject as clearly previously shown.
THIRD, Neither of the two largest religions (really cults) can be the genuine one as both have promoted genocides and a lust for violence from time to time.
FOURTH, The genuine true religion is the one which has the genuine true followers of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ as shown by their abhorrence of violence and their efforts to be footstep followers of him.
To learn more, check out the following:
[1] religioustruths.proboards59.com/ An Educational Referral Forum
[2] www.network54.com/Forum/403209 A Forum Devoted to Exposing The False Religion of Islam
[3] jude3.proboards92.com/ A Free-Speech Forum For All
[4] www.freewebs.com/iris_the_preacher My web site.
Your Friend in Christ Iris89