Post by iris89 on Sept 3, 2009 10:20:10 GMT -5
An Interesting Discussion That Resulted On Another Forum From My Posting Of Distinguishing Features of Genuine (true) Christians
This is an interesting discussion that all can learn from and should read.
DISTINGUISHING FEATURES OF GENUINE (TRUE) CHRISTIANS
1. Genuine (true) Christians believe the Bible all the way, not half way as do the creeds such as Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Coptics, etc.
2. Genuine (true) Christians are ABSOLUTE MONOTHEIST and believe only in the true God (YHWH) of Abraham and not some celestial god such as the old middle eastern Moon god or the Unconquered Sun, 'Sol Invictus' whose birth day the apostate (counterfeit) Christians celebrate as Christmas - they falsely call it the birth day of Christ which it is not, and say he is part of a trinity of three gods which is an outright lie.
3. Genuine (true) Christians do NOT worship objects such as the cross or idols or icons, nor do they worship individuals as many do, NOR believe in man made false doctrines such as the Trinity, apostolic succession, hell fire, etc.
4. Genuine (true) Christians do NOT participate in nationalism and its accompanying violence and wars, nor do they celebrate nationalistic holidays or man made religious holidays.
5. Genuine (true) Christians keep themselves apart from the wicked ways of this world.
6. Genuine (true) Christians do NOT practice racism, but exercise love. They believe in freedom.
7. Genuine (true) Christians not use harmful substances for illicit enjoyment or endulge in excesses; they do not use drugs for recreational use, smoke, or over indulge in alcoholic beverages, etc.
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Reply Question #1:
i don't think any christians meet those requirements iris..
They all beleive in a trinity..except for the JW's.
and NONE believe in the bible - the whole bible - everything in the bible..
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Reply Answer #1:
Hi ******
Wrong, I accept the entire Bible and try to live my life in accordance with it.
But you can not show a single Muslim living to the requirements of the Bible knockoff, the Qur'an.
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Reply Question #2:
ok so you are one person...
but i haven't met any, all the churches i gone, they believe differently.
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Reply Answer #2:
Hi *****
Yes, I well know that and I am not surprised at your finding. The so called Christian religion consist of over 33,000+ sects and/or groups all believing and propagating different things which is the promoting of many false religions under the broad umbrella of the taxonomy of being Christian. However, it should be obvious to any thinking individual that 33,000+ different ways can NOT all be correct, so what we in effect have is a very large maze that one must transverse to get to the real truth since all but one would only be dead ends.
Take for example how some of them are knowingly deviating from Romans 1:19-29, "because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves:
25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.
28 And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers," (American Standard Version; ASV). But as we all know from the news, many churches are sanctioning same sex marriages and homosexual clergy.
Of course, no one has the time to investigate each one to verify who is correct, yet one can find out which is correct. In order to do this, one can NOT examine each in detail, but must therefore seek to learn what the Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), Creator of all that exist, the Bible, really teaches. But this is no easy task.
But let's consider the two taxonomies or distinct classifications of what is commonly referred to as Christianity. Realizing that some view gaining salvation as and easy task and feel that belonging to any old religion is acceptable to Almighty God (YHWH), but is it? Let's look at some facts, realities in keeping with John 8:32, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (Authorized King James Bible; AV).
Now let's look at the two different taxonomies and carefully note what sets them apart from each other:
Group 1 - the genuine (true) followers of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ do NOT involve themselves with war and violence or meddle in politics, and try to follow to the 'letter' the words and commandments of Christ. Also, they have NO creedal doctrines and/or traditions.
Group 2 - the false claimants of being followers of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ involve themselves with war and violence and meddle in politics while falsely claiming to be followers of Christ, the Prince of Peace. The give 'lip' service with respect following to the 'letter' the words and commandments of Christ - the term Sunday Christian aptly fits them. They have their creedal doctrines and/or traditions and assign more importance to these than the Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), the Bible.
As can readily be seen, Group 1 does not involve itself with nationalism and racism but readily recognizes the Biblical reality of no partiality as shown at Romans 2:11 and elsewhere, "for there is no respect of persons with God." (American Standard Version: ASV). Also, this group strives to follow the 'letter' of the commandments of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ and Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), Creator of all that exist, the Bible; and NOT the creeds and creedal doctrines of men who give themselves high sounding titles.
Whereas, Group 2 only gives 'lip service' to commandments of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ and Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), Creator of all that exist, the Bible. The self evident truth being:
That it matters not what their holy book says be they Group 2 so called Christians and/or some none so called Christian group such as Islam, Hinduism, etc. It is not what either the Bible or the Bible takeoff the Qur'an actually say, but how religious leaders be they priest and/or imams or muftis or what ever teach the people is the interpretation of what is written either in the Bible or the Bible takeoff the Qur'an that matters and governs actions. It matters not what the Bible and/or the Bible takeoff really say. People go by what they are taught by their religious leaders. Take the genocide committed by the Roman Catholic Church at the direction of their supreme religious leader, the pope, what mattered was not that the Bible clearly said at Exodus 20:13, "Thou shalt not kill." (Authorized King James Bible; AV), but what their religious leaders told them. Therefore, it is the religion at fault, irregardless of what their particular holy book, be it the Bible or the Bible takeoff the Qur'an may say. Neither in so called Christianity or in Islam are most individuals actions really governed in any way by what their particular holy book really says, but they are governed by the interpretation of their religious leaders. Thus, knowing this reality, one would be either just plain stupid and/or dumb to even bother looking at a particular religion's holy book and expect the members would conform to it. Take the Rig Vede and find me for example a Hindu actually conforming to it instead of the interpretation given to it by his religious leaders, like looking for a needle in the haystack per K.S. Lal, India's greatest historian.
So, clearly, it is NOT my taxonomy but reality that sets the two groups clearly apart as separate classifications. Also, it is not my opinion that sets the two separate groups that are called "Christians" apart, but clearly the diametrically opposed actions of the two groups.
In fact, the Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), the Bible, clearly demonstrates how difficult it really is not to be mislead by the Devil and the religious leaders of evil false religions under control of the god of this system of things. This was clearly shown by Almighty God's (YHWH's) Son, Jesus (Yeshua), in answering a question asked of him at Luke 13:23-30, "And one said unto him, Lord, are they few that are saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in by the narrow door: for many, I say unto you, shall seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, open to us; and he shall answer and say to you, I know you not whence ye are; 26 then shall ye begin to say, We did eat and drink in thy presence, and thou didst teach in our streets; 27 and he shall say, I tell you, I know not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without. 29 And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, there are last who shall be first, and there are first who shall be last." (ASV).
Also, Jesus (Yeshua) clearly showed his genuine (true) followers would be few in number compared to the total number of mankind. Let's consider both Luke 13:24 and Matthew 7:13-14, it is in both of these that the road followed by true believers would be narrow and cramped, Luke 13:24, "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." (Authorized King James Bible: AV); And Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, abroad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (AV); thereby, clearly showing few would be entering the narrow gate "which leadeth unto life." In reality, it will be difficult for even true Christians to enter as testified to at 1 Peter 4:18, "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear." (AV). In order to enter, we must have the right sort of guide, Luke 1:79, "To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace." (AV). Now, if one picks the wrong group, just because it is popular or the so called 'one to belong to in a community' and not because of Bible Truths, there is an important warning given at Matthew 15:14, "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." (AV). In fact, being with the wrong group can mean you are NOT having fellowship with the Son of God, Jesus (Yeshua) as testified to at 1 John 1:6, "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not [have] the truth." (AV). This danger is made abundantly clear at Luke 12:32 when Jesus (Yeshua) spoke of his true followers as a little flock and not a large one, "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." (AV). Simply stated, his true followers will be relatively few in number which should cause all sincere individuals to question whether mainstream religion with its vast membership is heading for the narrow gate!
Now being this is the case, it behooves all genuine (true) followers of Jesus (Yeshua) to show neighbor love and warn their neighbors of the need to seek genuine salvation and to get OUT OF EVIL FALSE RELIGION regardless of what it is called or how long their families and friends have been members of it. This would be required by what Jesus (Yeshua) said at Matthew 22:37-40, "And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets." (ASV).
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Reply Question #3:
Valid points iris..
and i can understand people picking and choosing what they believe in..however, what i can't understand is christians who say they believe in one thing when they really don't.
1. "I believe the bible is the whole truth" - then they don't believe in gifts of the spirit.
2. the whole Trinity belief - if one actually reads the bible, one can plainly see there IS no trinity...
3. The whole "TITHE" idea...churches use that money to build bigger and better and expensiver churches...NOT give that money to poor, widows or orphans.
4. the bible should be unedited. - ok then why are there so many diff versions of the bible? didn't God get it right the first time? or did man think he can 'IMPROVE" upon the bible..
its been changed so much in the last 50 years, you get an older bible and a new one, and its TOTALLY different meaning...
now to address your "Gay" point..
God never said he will make a gay person un-gay. and the original translation was 'unnatural' meaning no procreation.
Procreation held an importance back then, now we have procreated the earth and don't really need to anymore..we need to actually have LESS kids, cus the earth is being so taxed on its resources.
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Reply Answer #3:
Hi *****
First, you are correct the Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), the Bible, is the whole truth provided for us as a guide. As I have said before, the Bible is NOT the product of one committee or strongman. It has over 40 individual writers who wrote under divine inspiration/guidance putting the thoughts of God (YHWH) into the words of men much as transcribing secretaries today taking transcription and then later typing it out. In other words one real author, God (YHWH), and many scribes each of whom wrote in his own style over a period of approximately 1,600 years. All of what people call or consider inconsistencies are really not such, but most often just a problem of translation and/or understanding, i.e., lack of understanding of what the original writer writing in his own language and culture meant/said in his original writing. What is remarkable, is the writers over such a period of time all wrote in harmony when even most posters on threads on this forum can not even stay on track or subject over a period of a few days and/or weeks at most with the original subject of the thread. This fact of harmony over a period so great as to almost stagger the imagination shows that it had one guiding force or author who divinely inspired its writers as humans of their own volition can not keep on track over short periods of time.
To wit, the Bible is the ONLY book God (YHWH) ever inspired men to write as his scribes. In other words, God is its author and men only put his thoughts given to them by divine inspiration into their own words, the words of men. Not only that, all the other writers of later so called religious guidance books borrowed from it and made changes in accord with their strong man or so called prophet. Take the example of Joseph Smith who borrowed from it to write the Book of Mormon, but failed to give credit or source to the Bible and twisted some borrowed things into bizarre distortions. Other examples are of course the bizarre writings of David Koresh the Prophet of the Branch Dividians of Waco, Texas; and the Quran, etc.
Second, With respect the Trinity, I saw through that when I was about 8 or 9 years old. Interestingly, on the Rapid City Moms forum there has been a lot of discussion on what is political and what is religious, but there is an interesting book that shows that the concept of the Trinity was injected into so called Christianity by the late Roman Empire for political reasons. The book is, "When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome," by Richard E. Rubenstein. I have not read it, but I have read many of the original sources the author pulls from. Now this book could easily be placed in either the political and/or the religious classification, and if I were making the selection I could only do it by coin toss as it is entirely fitting for either classification.
Third, you said, "The whole "TITHE" idea...churches use that money to build bigger and better and expensiver churches...NOT give that money to poor, widows or orphans." Ah, you like I have seen through this wrong concept. Tithing was a limited time only thing done in the 1 st. century to met special needs and NOT something to be carried on for the enrichment of various religions.
Fourth, you said, "the bible should be unedited. - ok then why are there so many diff versions of the bible? didn't God get it right the first time? or did man think he can 'IMPROVE" upon the bible.." The reason for translations/versions of the Bible or any other work are two fold, 1 st. to make a work available in another language, 2 nd. Language changes over time and no longer means the same today as can readily be seen in the Authorized King James and in Wychlifts Bible. Also, there are many types of Bible translations; to wit, ones designed for easy reading and others for literal reading and either of these two types can be either equavocity or univocity (equavocity - same word rendered different in various places, and univocity - an attempt to render the same word always the same throughout). Most Bibles are equavocity, but there are a few that are univocity.
Fifth, you said, "Procreation held an importance back then, now we have procreated the earth and don't really need to anymore..we need to actually have LESS kids, cus the earth is being so taxed on its resources." And I readily agree with you. The Bible clearly says, Genesis 1:22, " And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth." (Authorized King James Bible; AV); It did NOT say overfill the earth. It is like telling a child to go fill a glass with milk, you mean for his to fill it and NOT to keep pouring after it is full.
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Reply Question #4:
Iris,i agree with you on all your points except for these.
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What is remarkable, is the writers over such a period of time all wrote in harmony
no they didn't...they had lots of different opinions...and even today's bible contradicts itself.
not to mention the books that didn't make it in the bible...and have been lost...fortunately we have the dead sea scrolls and others that they have found so we can have originals that the RCC didn't bastardize according to their own doctrines and self political motivations.
THe RCC DID change the books...they altered the meaning in translation to agree with Constintine's belief. then King James wanted a bible..and all his translators altered the bible according to HIS beliefs.
For example, the whole idea of purgatory, is in the apocrypha. so you take out the apocrypha, and **** NO purgatory.
THIS is ABOVE and beyond simple translating...
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To wit, the Bible is the ONLY book God (YHWH) ever inspired men to write as his scribes.
first of all, why would God only write 'one book'?? why wouldn't GOd speak to many? over time???
and the bible isn't really a 'book' its a bunch of letters the RCC picked out...Nicene councel...picked them out. and anyone who disagreed with them, was ousted.
It wasn't GOD who called them a heretic. it was the RCC.
Also, we are missing HUGE chunks of Jesus's life...what did he do in the middle?? surely if God thought jesus was all that we would know more details about jesus.
The trinity is another RCC idea....its their way of saying Jesus IS God without saying they are polytheist.
OK and now for a question for ya..
you said tithing was only for the first century...can you give me a source for that please..
Thanks iris!
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Reply Answer #4:
Hi *****
First, Actually the Bible only seems to contradict itself, but when one really digs deep in, he/she quickly starts to see that what seems to be contradictions really are not. I have written several articles on this that you will find at the following:
[1] Discourse On Apparent Bible Contradictions and Divine Inspiration:
religioustruths.proboards59.com/i....63888325&page=1
[2] Why Sweat Apparent Bible Contradictions:
religioustruths.proboards59.com/i....read=1192642220
[3] Let's Have Reality in Translation:
religioustruths.proboards59.com/i....read=1163888709
[4] Apparent Contradictions in the Bible Compared To Real Ones In The Quran and the Book of Mormon:
religioustruths.proboards59.com/i....read=1163888925
[5] Series Apparent Bible Contradictions vs. Real Contradictions in the Quran:
religioustruths.proboards59.com/i....read=1168221950
Second, Now let's look at the reality with respect the books that did not make it, the aprocypha, the RCC attempt to mislead, and a book that truly did not make it - my discovery:
Discourse on a Lost Book of the Bible:
INTRODUCTION:
There have been many claims for lost books of the Bible, but in reality all but one of these claims is just plain spurious. What is usually being referred to are books that were not divinely inspired nor legitimate, but not actually lost. These will be dealt with in three sections, (1) The Aprocypha or deuterocanonical books, (2) The external books actually quoted in the Bible by inspired writers, (3) History books that some count as part of the Aprocypha, i.e., the 4 Books of Maccabees, the strangest case of all!
But there actually is one lost book, although obviously very short, that we do NOT have today, and I call it 4 th. John.
THE APROCYPHA OR DEUTERCANONICAL BOOKS:
First, let's consider what they are as defined by the Columbia Encyclopedia, sixth edition, by Columbia University Press. This encyclopedia defines the Apocrypha as, "(pk´rf) (KEY) [Gr.,=hidden things], term signifying a collection of early Jewish writings excluded from the canon of the Hebrew scriptures. It is not clear why the term was chosen." In reality they were nothing but uninspired writings, many purporting to be written by other than who was actually their author, or basically illegitimate and lacking credence. In fact, the real author of only one of the Apocrypha is actually known. Some religions, unfortunately, have included some of the Apocrypha in their Bibles, but even these were few in number. A list of most of the Apocrypha follows:
1 Clement, 1st Apocalypse of James, 2 Clement, 2nd Apocalypse of James, 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, Acts of Andrew, Acts of Apollonius, Acts of Carpus, Acts of John,Acts of Paul, Acts of Perpetua and Felicitas, Acts of Peter, Acts of Peter and the Twelve, Acts of Pilate, Acts of the Apostles, Acts of Thomas, Additions to the Book of Esther, Anonymous Anti-Montanist. Anti-Marcionite Prologues, Apelles, Apocalypse of John, Apocalypse of Peter, Apocryphon of John, Apollonius, Apology of Aristides, Aristo of Pella, Ascension of Isaiah, Athenagoras of Athens, Authoritative Teaching, Bardesanes, Baruch, Basilides, Eel and the Dragon, Book of Elchasai, Book of Thomas the Contender, Books of Jeu, Caius, Celsus, Christian Sibyllines, Claudius Apollinaris, Clement of Alexandria, Colossians, Coptic Apocalypse of Paul, Coptic Apocalypse of Peter, Dialogue of the Savior, Diatessaron, Didache, Didascalia, Dionysius of Corinth, Discourse on the Eighth and Ninth, Dura-Europos Gospel Harmony, Ecclesiasticus, or the Wisdom of Jesus the Son of Sirach, Egerton Gospel, Epiphanes On Righteousness, Epistle of Barnabas, Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus, Epistula Apostolorum, Excerpts of Theodotus, Fayyum Fragment, Fifth and Sixth Books of Esra, Fronto, Galen, Gospel of Judas, Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Peter, Gospel of Philip, Gospel of the Ebionite, Gospel of the Egyptians, Gospel of the Hebrews, Gospel of the Nazoreans, Gospel of the Savior, Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Truth, Hegesippus, Heracleon, Hippolytus of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Infancy Gospel of James, Infancy Gospel of Thomas, Inscription of Abercius, Irenaeus of Lyons, Isidore, Judith, Julius Cassianus, Justin Martyr, Kerygmata Petrou, Letter from Vienna and Lyons, Letter of Jeremiah, Letter of Peter to Philip, Lost Sayings Gospel Q, Lucian of Samosata, Mara Bar Serapion, Marcion, Marcus Aurelius, Martyrdom of Polycarp, Maximus of Jerusalem, Melchizedek, Melito of Sardis, Muratorian Canon, Naassene Fragment, Octavius of Minucius Felix, Odes of Solomon, Ophite Diagrams, Origen, Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel, Oxyrhynchus 840 Gospel, Pantaenus, Papias, Passion Narrative, Passion of the Scillitan Martyrs , Philostratus, Pistis Sophia, Pliny the Younger, Polycarp to the Philippians, Polycrates of Ephesus, Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Jews, Prayer of Manasseh, Preaching of Peter, Ptolemy, Quadratus of Athens, Rhodon, Secret Book of James, Secret Mark, Serapion of Antioch, Shepherd of Hermas, Signs Gospel, Sophia of Jesus Christ, Suetonius, Susanna, Tacitus, Tatian's Address to the Greeks, The Additions to the Book of Daniel, Tertullian, Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, Theophilus of Antioch, Theophilus of Caesarea, Tobit, Traditions of Matthias, Treatise on the Resurrection, Trimorphic Protennoia, Valentinus, Victor I, Wisdom of Solomon, etc.
As can be seen many of these none illegitimate books try to give themselves credence by closely mimicking the names of actual legitimate canonical books of the Bible. These books are often called the pseudepigrapha? The term is a transliteration of the Greek plural noun that literally means "with false superscription". According to Webster's Third New International Dictionary (p. 1830), the term can be defined as, "spurious works purporting to emanate from biblical characters". The Random House Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language defines the term as, "Certain writings (other than the canonical books and the Apocrypha) professing to be Biblical in character, but not considered canonical or inspired. These are NOT lost books, just NOT legitimate books of Bible cannon.
THE EXTERNAL BOOKS QUOTED IN THE BIBLE:
There are many external books quoted by inspired Bible writers as references. Many are, "not aware that the Old Testament authors depended upon other writings as their sources which they freely admit. Among these are: the Book of the Wars of Yahweh (Num. 21:14), the Book of the Jashar (Josh 10:13; 2 Sam. 1:18), the Book of the Acts of Solomon (1 Ki 14:19; 2 Chr 33:18), the Book of the Annals of the Kings of Judah (1 Ki 14:29, 15:7), the Annals of Samuel the Seer (1 Chr 29:29), the History of Nathan the Prophet (2 Chr 9:29), the Annals of Shemaiah the Prophet and Iddo the Seer (2 Chr. 12:15), the Annals of Jehu the Son of Hanani (2 Chr. 20:34), and others. Some teach that Moses compiled the Book of Genesis from other writings that surely had to have been handed down and preserved by his forefathers. Genesis can be broken down into eleven separate history books, each being separated by colophons at the conclusion of the books. This is known to have been a popular style for such ancient writings. ...According to this theory we have eleven separate books having the following authors: Adam, Noah, and eight other authors which Moses merely compiled into one book. [source= Ronald G. Fanter Cutting Edge Ministries].
One of these books is still existent today, the Book of Jashar or as it is sometimes called the Book of the Just, and another, the Book of the Wars of Yahweh, is actually thought my most scholars to actually be the Book of Jashar. The Book of Jashar is quite interesting, but one must be careful in obtaining a copy as there are counterfeit books masquerading as the Book of Jashar which are not. Also, there is a counterfeit Book of the Wars of Yahweh which is of course a fake since as previously said, this book is thought to just be another name for the Book of Jashar.
THE 4 BOOKS OF MACCABEES:
This is by far the strangest case of all. The 4 Books of Maccabees are ranked by many as part of the Apocrypha; however, they should be ranked as history books of the 1 st. and 2 nd. Century roughly before the incarnation of our leader and savior, Jesus (Yeshua) Christ. Very strange is the fact that the Catholic church accepted only two of them into their Canon of Bible Books; whereas, there are four of them. The Greek Orthodox, however, accepted three of them, and only the Cathars accepted the fourth. Strange to say the least, but none should have been accepted as canonical as they are history books, and one would NOT THINK of accepting H. G. Wells, 'Outline of History," into the Bible cannon; we are getting into the absurd. However, they make excellent reading as history books that fill in the history of these two centuries.
THE REAL LOST BOOK OF 4 JOHN:
However as testified to in the Bible there is a book that is totally legitimate having been written by none other than the Apostle John as a letter to a congregation just as were The First Epistle of John, The Second Epistle of John, and The Third Epistle of John. It is the lost Fourth Epistle of John referred to in The Third Epistle of John that the Revised Standard Version states at 3 John 9, "have written something to the church; but Diot'rephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge my authority." (Revised Standard Version; RSV).
Let's look at this text in context in the Douay Rheims Catholic Bible, 3 John 9-14, and get a better understanding of the circumstances that existed at the time that the Apostle John wrote this letter (epistle):
9 I had written perhaps to the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, doth not receive us. 10 11 Dearly beloved, follow not that which is evil: but that which is good. He that doth good is of God: he that doth evil hath not seen God. 12 To Demetrius, testimony is given by all, and by the truth itself: yea and we also give testimony. And thou knowest that our testimony is true. 13 I had many things to write unto thee: but I would not by ink and pen write to thee. 14 But I hope speedily to see thee: and we will speak mouth to mouth. Peace be to thee. Our friends salute thee. Salute the friends by name.
Let's also look at this text in context in the Good News Translation, 3 John 9-14:
I wrote a short letter to the church; but Diotrephes, who likes to be their leader, will not pay any attention to what I say. 10 When I come, then, I will bring up everything he has done: the terrible things he says about us and the lies he tells! But that is not enough for him; he will not receive the Christians when they come, and even stops those who want to receive them and tries to drive them out of the church! 11 My dear friend, do not imitate what is bad, but imitate what is good. Whoever does good belongs to God; whoever does what is bad has not seen God. 12 Everyone speaks well of Demetrius; truth itself speaks well of him. And we add our testimony, and you know that what we say is true. 13 I have so much to tell you, but I do not want to do it with pen and ink. 14 I hope to see you soon, and then we will talk personally. 15 Peace be with you.
This letter was directed to the church (congregation) of which Gaius was a member as shown at 3 John 1-2, "To my dear Gaius, whom I truly love. 2 My dear friend, I pray that everything may go well with you and that you may be in good health-as I know you are well in spirit." (the Good News Translation; GNT), but due to Diotrephes it failed in its purpose since Diotrephes loved to be pre-eminent in the congregation and not a servant as a minister should be according to Matthew 20:25-26, " But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 26 Not so shall it be among you: but whosoever would become great among you shall be your minister;" (American Standard Version; ASV). The facts presented are affirmed in 100s of different translations. A. Plummer, in the book, "The Epistles of Saint John," made the following comment, "Perhaps the meaning is that Diotrephes meant to make his Church independent; hitherto it had been governed by Saint John from Ephesus, but Diotrephes wished to make it autonomous to his own glorification." [source="The Epistles of Saint John," by A. Plummer, Cambridge: The University Press, 1886, page 149].
As all can see, this is really a lost book that should be in our Bible, but is not due to the fact that it was not preserved. Whereas, all the so called other lost books of the Bible are not lost; they exist, but have no place in the Word of God (YHWH), the Bible, as they were NOT written under divine inspiration, hence not legitimate with respect belonging to Bible canon.
Third, You said, "For example, the whole idea of purgatory, is in the apocrypha. so you take out the apocrypha, and **** NO purgatory." Now go to the following to learn the detailed proof against the false doctrine of purgatory:
Discourse on Purgatory: at,
religioustruths.proboards59.com/i....read=1169240774
Fourth, You said, "THe RCC DID change the books...they altered the meaning in translation to agree with Constintine's belief. then King James wanted a bible..and all his translators altered the bible according to HIS beliefs."
You are correct on what the RCC did and I have written several articles on it that you should read:
[1] Councils of the Catholic Church and Bible Canon:
jude3.proboards92.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=ch&thread=250
[2] A Second Look Including The Thinking of Jerome:
religioustruths.proboards59.com/i....63276574&page=1
[3] Bible Canon - A Challenging Addition On The Subject of The Apocrypha:
religioustruths.proboards59.com/i....63276825&page=1
With respect the (Authorized King James Bible; AV), go to:
Learn About the Authorized King James Bible: (by another) at,
religioustruths.proboards59.com/i....read=1166482897
Fifth, You said, "Also, we are missing HUGE chunks of Jesus's life...what did he do in the middle?? surely if God thought jesus was all that we would know more details about jesus."
Yes, the Bible only records part of his life and there is a scripture (but I forget where it is) that says the whole would cover many books. But a lot is explained in my very long documentary (actually a small book):
DOCUMENTARY ON OUR SAVIOR JESUS (YESHUA):
religioustruths.proboards59.com/i....63804424&page=1
Sixth, You said, "The trinity is another RCC idea....its their way of saying Jesus IS God without saying they are polytheist." And you are correct. In addition to the book, "When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome," by Richard E. Rubenstein, I mentioned in my last post to you, but there are many others such as, The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound, by Sir Anthony Buzzard; Jesus Was Not a Trinitarian by Anthony Buzzard; A Plausible Alternative to Christian Orthodoxy, May 28, 2005, By Stephen Triesch; Jesus-God or the Son of God? A Comparison of the Arguments (Paperback), by Brian Holt; Divine Truth or Human Tradition?: A Reconsiderat... by Patrick Navas; Etc.
Seventh, With respect Tithing, here is an exert from a Bible dictionary:
"These two accounts, however, are merely instances of voluntarily giving one tenth. There is no record to the effect that Abraham or Jacob commanded their descendants to follow such examples, thereby establishing a religious practice, custom, or law. It would have been superfluous for Jacob, if already under a compulsory obligation to pay tithes, to vow to do so, as he did. It is therefore evident that the tithing arrangement was not a custom or a law among the early Hebrews. It was instituted with the inauguration of the Law covenant, not before.
Mosaic Tithing Laws. Jehovah gave Israel tithing laws for definite purposes, apparently involving the use of two tenths of their annual income, except during the Sabbath years, when no tithe was paid, since no income was anticipated. (Le 25:1-12) However, some scholars believe there was only one tithe. Such tithes were in addition to the firstfruits they were under obligation to offer to Jehovah.-Ex 23:19; 34:26.
The first tithe, consisting of one tenth of the produce of the land and fruit trees and (evidently of the increase) of the herds and flocks, was brought to the sanctuary and given to the Levites, since they had no inheritance in the land but were devoted to the service of the sanctuary. (Le 27:30-32; Nu 18:21, 24) The Levites, in turn, gave a tenth of what they received to the Aaronic priesthood for their support.-Nu 18:25-29.
Evidently the grain was threshed and the fruit of the vine and of the olive tree was converted into wine and oil before tithing. (Nu 18:27, 30; Ne 10:37) If an Israelite wished to give money instead of this produce, he could do so, provided he added an additional fifth to the valuation. (Le 27:31) But it was different with the flock and the herd. As the animals came out of the pen one by one through a gate, the owner stood by the gate with a rod and marked every tenth one as the tithe, without examination or selection.-Le 27:32, 33.
It seems there was an additional tithe, a second tenth, set aside each year for purposes other than the direct support of the Levitical priesthood, though the Levites shared in it. Normally it was used and enjoyed in large measure by the Israelite family when assembling together at the national festivals. In cases where the distance to Jerusalem was too great for the convenient transport of this tithe, then the produce was converted into money and this, in turn, was used in Jerusalem for the household's sustenance and enjoyment during the holy convention there. (De 12:4-7, 11, 17, 18; 14:22-27) Then, at the end of every third and sixth years of the seven-year sabbatical cycle, this tithe, instead of being used to defray expenses at the national assemblies, was set aside for the Levites, alien residents, widows, and fatherless boys in the local community.-De 14:28, 29; 26:12.
These tithing laws binding on Israel were not excessive. Nor should it be overlooked that God promised to prosper Israel by opening "the floodgates of the heavens" if his tithing laws were obeyed. (Mal 3:10; De 28:1, 2, 11-14) When the people became negligent as to tithing, the priesthood suffered, for the priests and Levites were forced to spend their time in secular work and consequently neglected their ministerial services. (Ne 13:10) Such unfaithfulness tended to bring about a decline in true worship. Sadly, when the ten tribes fell away to calf worship, they used the tithe to support that false religion. (Am 4:4, 5) On the other hand, when Israel was faithful to Jehovah and was under the rule of righteous administrators, tithing for the Levites was restored, and true to Jehovah's promise, there were no shortages.-2Ch 31:4-12; Ne 10:37, 38; 12:44; 13:11-13.
Under the Law there was no stated penalty to be applied to a person failing to tithe. Jehovah placed all under a strong moral obligation to provide the tithe; at the end of the three-year tithing cycle, they were required to confess before him that the tithe had been paid in full. (De 26:12-15) Anything wrongfully withheld was viewed as something stolen from God.-Mal 3:7-9.
By the first century C.E., the Jewish religious leaders, particularly among the scribes and Pharisees, were making a sanctimonious show of tithing and other outward works, in a form of worship, but their hearts were far removed from God. (Mt 15:1-9) Jesus reproved them for their selfish, hypocritical attitude, calling attention to their being meticulous to give a tenth even of "the mint and the dill and the cumin"-something they should have done-yet at the same time disregarding "the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness." (Mt 23:23; Lu 11:42) By way of illustration, Jesus contrasted the Pharisee who boastfully felt self-righteous because of his own works of fasting and tithing, with the tax collector who, though considered as nothing by the Pharisee, humbled himself, confessed his sins to God, and begged for divine mercy.-Lu 18:9-14.
No Tithing for Christians. At no time were first-century Christians commanded to pay tithes. The primary purpose of the tithing arrangement under the Law had been to support Israel's temple and priesthood; consequently the obligation to pay tithes would cease when that Mosaic Law covenant came to an end as fulfilled, through Christ's death on the torture stake. (Eph 2:15; Col 2:13, 14) It is true that Levitical priests continued serving at the temple in Jerusalem until it was destroyed in 70 C.E., but Christians from and after 33 C.E. became part of a new spiritual priesthood that was not supported by tithes.-Ro 6:14; Heb 7:12; 1Pe 2:9.
As Christians, they were encouraged to give support to the Christian ministry both by their own ministerial activity and by material contributions. Instead of giving fixed, specified amounts to defray congregational expenses, they were to contribute "according to what a person has," giving "as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." (2Co 8:12; 9:7) They were encouraged to follow the principle: "Let the older men who preside in a fine way be reckoned worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard in speaking and teaching. For the scripture says: 'You must not muzzle a bull when it threshes out the grain'; also: 'The workman is worthy of his wages.'" (1Ti 5:17, 18) However, the apostle Paul set an example in seeking to avoid bringing an undue financial burden on the congregation.-Ac 18:3; 1Th 2:9." [source - Insight on the Scriptures, Vol. II]
Boy getting all that information and sources together was a real workout.
To learn more, check out the following:
[1] religioustruths.proboards59.com/ An Educational Referral Forum
[2] www.network54.com/Forum/403209 A Forum Devoted to Exposing The False Religion of Islam
[3] jude3.proboards92.com/ A Free-Speech Forum For All
[4] www.freewebs.com/iris_the_preacher My web site.
Your Friend in Christ Iris89
This is an interesting discussion that all can learn from and should read.
DISTINGUISHING FEATURES OF GENUINE (TRUE) CHRISTIANS
1. Genuine (true) Christians believe the Bible all the way, not half way as do the creeds such as Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Coptics, etc.
2. Genuine (true) Christians are ABSOLUTE MONOTHEIST and believe only in the true God (YHWH) of Abraham and not some celestial god such as the old middle eastern Moon god or the Unconquered Sun, 'Sol Invictus' whose birth day the apostate (counterfeit) Christians celebrate as Christmas - they falsely call it the birth day of Christ which it is not, and say he is part of a trinity of three gods which is an outright lie.
3. Genuine (true) Christians do NOT worship objects such as the cross or idols or icons, nor do they worship individuals as many do, NOR believe in man made false doctrines such as the Trinity, apostolic succession, hell fire, etc.
4. Genuine (true) Christians do NOT participate in nationalism and its accompanying violence and wars, nor do they celebrate nationalistic holidays or man made religious holidays.
5. Genuine (true) Christians keep themselves apart from the wicked ways of this world.
6. Genuine (true) Christians do NOT practice racism, but exercise love. They believe in freedom.
7. Genuine (true) Christians not use harmful substances for illicit enjoyment or endulge in excesses; they do not use drugs for recreational use, smoke, or over indulge in alcoholic beverages, etc.
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Reply Question #1:
i don't think any christians meet those requirements iris..
They all beleive in a trinity..except for the JW's.
and NONE believe in the bible - the whole bible - everything in the bible..
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Reply Answer #1:
Hi ******
Wrong, I accept the entire Bible and try to live my life in accordance with it.
But you can not show a single Muslim living to the requirements of the Bible knockoff, the Qur'an.
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Reply Question #2:
ok so you are one person...
but i haven't met any, all the churches i gone, they believe differently.
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Reply Answer #2:
Hi *****
Yes, I well know that and I am not surprised at your finding. The so called Christian religion consist of over 33,000+ sects and/or groups all believing and propagating different things which is the promoting of many false religions under the broad umbrella of the taxonomy of being Christian. However, it should be obvious to any thinking individual that 33,000+ different ways can NOT all be correct, so what we in effect have is a very large maze that one must transverse to get to the real truth since all but one would only be dead ends.
Take for example how some of them are knowingly deviating from Romans 1:19-29, "because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves:
25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.
28 And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers," (American Standard Version; ASV). But as we all know from the news, many churches are sanctioning same sex marriages and homosexual clergy.
Of course, no one has the time to investigate each one to verify who is correct, yet one can find out which is correct. In order to do this, one can NOT examine each in detail, but must therefore seek to learn what the Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), Creator of all that exist, the Bible, really teaches. But this is no easy task.
But let's consider the two taxonomies or distinct classifications of what is commonly referred to as Christianity. Realizing that some view gaining salvation as and easy task and feel that belonging to any old religion is acceptable to Almighty God (YHWH), but is it? Let's look at some facts, realities in keeping with John 8:32, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (Authorized King James Bible; AV).
Now let's look at the two different taxonomies and carefully note what sets them apart from each other:
Group 1 - the genuine (true) followers of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ do NOT involve themselves with war and violence or meddle in politics, and try to follow to the 'letter' the words and commandments of Christ. Also, they have NO creedal doctrines and/or traditions.
Group 2 - the false claimants of being followers of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ involve themselves with war and violence and meddle in politics while falsely claiming to be followers of Christ, the Prince of Peace. The give 'lip' service with respect following to the 'letter' the words and commandments of Christ - the term Sunday Christian aptly fits them. They have their creedal doctrines and/or traditions and assign more importance to these than the Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), the Bible.
As can readily be seen, Group 1 does not involve itself with nationalism and racism but readily recognizes the Biblical reality of no partiality as shown at Romans 2:11 and elsewhere, "for there is no respect of persons with God." (American Standard Version: ASV). Also, this group strives to follow the 'letter' of the commandments of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ and Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), Creator of all that exist, the Bible; and NOT the creeds and creedal doctrines of men who give themselves high sounding titles.
Whereas, Group 2 only gives 'lip service' to commandments of Jesus (Yeshua) Christ and Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), Creator of all that exist, the Bible. The self evident truth being:
That it matters not what their holy book says be they Group 2 so called Christians and/or some none so called Christian group such as Islam, Hinduism, etc. It is not what either the Bible or the Bible takeoff the Qur'an actually say, but how religious leaders be they priest and/or imams or muftis or what ever teach the people is the interpretation of what is written either in the Bible or the Bible takeoff the Qur'an that matters and governs actions. It matters not what the Bible and/or the Bible takeoff really say. People go by what they are taught by their religious leaders. Take the genocide committed by the Roman Catholic Church at the direction of their supreme religious leader, the pope, what mattered was not that the Bible clearly said at Exodus 20:13, "Thou shalt not kill." (Authorized King James Bible; AV), but what their religious leaders told them. Therefore, it is the religion at fault, irregardless of what their particular holy book, be it the Bible or the Bible takeoff the Qur'an may say. Neither in so called Christianity or in Islam are most individuals actions really governed in any way by what their particular holy book really says, but they are governed by the interpretation of their religious leaders. Thus, knowing this reality, one would be either just plain stupid and/or dumb to even bother looking at a particular religion's holy book and expect the members would conform to it. Take the Rig Vede and find me for example a Hindu actually conforming to it instead of the interpretation given to it by his religious leaders, like looking for a needle in the haystack per K.S. Lal, India's greatest historian.
So, clearly, it is NOT my taxonomy but reality that sets the two groups clearly apart as separate classifications. Also, it is not my opinion that sets the two separate groups that are called "Christians" apart, but clearly the diametrically opposed actions of the two groups.
In fact, the Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), the Bible, clearly demonstrates how difficult it really is not to be mislead by the Devil and the religious leaders of evil false religions under control of the god of this system of things. This was clearly shown by Almighty God's (YHWH's) Son, Jesus (Yeshua), in answering a question asked of him at Luke 13:23-30, "And one said unto him, Lord, are they few that are saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in by the narrow door: for many, I say unto you, shall seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, open to us; and he shall answer and say to you, I know you not whence ye are; 26 then shall ye begin to say, We did eat and drink in thy presence, and thou didst teach in our streets; 27 and he shall say, I tell you, I know not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without. 29 And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, there are last who shall be first, and there are first who shall be last." (ASV).
Also, Jesus (Yeshua) clearly showed his genuine (true) followers would be few in number compared to the total number of mankind. Let's consider both Luke 13:24 and Matthew 7:13-14, it is in both of these that the road followed by true believers would be narrow and cramped, Luke 13:24, "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." (Authorized King James Bible: AV); And Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, abroad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (AV); thereby, clearly showing few would be entering the narrow gate "which leadeth unto life." In reality, it will be difficult for even true Christians to enter as testified to at 1 Peter 4:18, "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear." (AV). In order to enter, we must have the right sort of guide, Luke 1:79, "To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace." (AV). Now, if one picks the wrong group, just because it is popular or the so called 'one to belong to in a community' and not because of Bible Truths, there is an important warning given at Matthew 15:14, "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." (AV). In fact, being with the wrong group can mean you are NOT having fellowship with the Son of God, Jesus (Yeshua) as testified to at 1 John 1:6, "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not [have] the truth." (AV). This danger is made abundantly clear at Luke 12:32 when Jesus (Yeshua) spoke of his true followers as a little flock and not a large one, "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." (AV). Simply stated, his true followers will be relatively few in number which should cause all sincere individuals to question whether mainstream religion with its vast membership is heading for the narrow gate!
Now being this is the case, it behooves all genuine (true) followers of Jesus (Yeshua) to show neighbor love and warn their neighbors of the need to seek genuine salvation and to get OUT OF EVIL FALSE RELIGION regardless of what it is called or how long their families and friends have been members of it. This would be required by what Jesus (Yeshua) said at Matthew 22:37-40, "And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets." (ASV).
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Reply Question #3:
Valid points iris..
and i can understand people picking and choosing what they believe in..however, what i can't understand is christians who say they believe in one thing when they really don't.
1. "I believe the bible is the whole truth" - then they don't believe in gifts of the spirit.
2. the whole Trinity belief - if one actually reads the bible, one can plainly see there IS no trinity...
3. The whole "TITHE" idea...churches use that money to build bigger and better and expensiver churches...NOT give that money to poor, widows or orphans.
4. the bible should be unedited. - ok then why are there so many diff versions of the bible? didn't God get it right the first time? or did man think he can 'IMPROVE" upon the bible..
its been changed so much in the last 50 years, you get an older bible and a new one, and its TOTALLY different meaning...
now to address your "Gay" point..
God never said he will make a gay person un-gay. and the original translation was 'unnatural' meaning no procreation.
Procreation held an importance back then, now we have procreated the earth and don't really need to anymore..we need to actually have LESS kids, cus the earth is being so taxed on its resources.
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Reply Answer #3:
Hi *****
First, you are correct the Inspired Word of Almighty God (YHWH), the Bible, is the whole truth provided for us as a guide. As I have said before, the Bible is NOT the product of one committee or strongman. It has over 40 individual writers who wrote under divine inspiration/guidance putting the thoughts of God (YHWH) into the words of men much as transcribing secretaries today taking transcription and then later typing it out. In other words one real author, God (YHWH), and many scribes each of whom wrote in his own style over a period of approximately 1,600 years. All of what people call or consider inconsistencies are really not such, but most often just a problem of translation and/or understanding, i.e., lack of understanding of what the original writer writing in his own language and culture meant/said in his original writing. What is remarkable, is the writers over such a period of time all wrote in harmony when even most posters on threads on this forum can not even stay on track or subject over a period of a few days and/or weeks at most with the original subject of the thread. This fact of harmony over a period so great as to almost stagger the imagination shows that it had one guiding force or author who divinely inspired its writers as humans of their own volition can not keep on track over short periods of time.
To wit, the Bible is the ONLY book God (YHWH) ever inspired men to write as his scribes. In other words, God is its author and men only put his thoughts given to them by divine inspiration into their own words, the words of men. Not only that, all the other writers of later so called religious guidance books borrowed from it and made changes in accord with their strong man or so called prophet. Take the example of Joseph Smith who borrowed from it to write the Book of Mormon, but failed to give credit or source to the Bible and twisted some borrowed things into bizarre distortions. Other examples are of course the bizarre writings of David Koresh the Prophet of the Branch Dividians of Waco, Texas; and the Quran, etc.
Second, With respect the Trinity, I saw through that when I was about 8 or 9 years old. Interestingly, on the Rapid City Moms forum there has been a lot of discussion on what is political and what is religious, but there is an interesting book that shows that the concept of the Trinity was injected into so called Christianity by the late Roman Empire for political reasons. The book is, "When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome," by Richard E. Rubenstein. I have not read it, but I have read many of the original sources the author pulls from. Now this book could easily be placed in either the political and/or the religious classification, and if I were making the selection I could only do it by coin toss as it is entirely fitting for either classification.
Third, you said, "The whole "TITHE" idea...churches use that money to build bigger and better and expensiver churches...NOT give that money to poor, widows or orphans." Ah, you like I have seen through this wrong concept. Tithing was a limited time only thing done in the 1 st. century to met special needs and NOT something to be carried on for the enrichment of various religions.
Fourth, you said, "the bible should be unedited. - ok then why are there so many diff versions of the bible? didn't God get it right the first time? or did man think he can 'IMPROVE" upon the bible.." The reason for translations/versions of the Bible or any other work are two fold, 1 st. to make a work available in another language, 2 nd. Language changes over time and no longer means the same today as can readily be seen in the Authorized King James and in Wychlifts Bible. Also, there are many types of Bible translations; to wit, ones designed for easy reading and others for literal reading and either of these two types can be either equavocity or univocity (equavocity - same word rendered different in various places, and univocity - an attempt to render the same word always the same throughout). Most Bibles are equavocity, but there are a few that are univocity.
Fifth, you said, "Procreation held an importance back then, now we have procreated the earth and don't really need to anymore..we need to actually have LESS kids, cus the earth is being so taxed on its resources." And I readily agree with you. The Bible clearly says, Genesis 1:22, " And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth." (Authorized King James Bible; AV); It did NOT say overfill the earth. It is like telling a child to go fill a glass with milk, you mean for his to fill it and NOT to keep pouring after it is full.
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Reply Question #4:
Iris,i agree with you on all your points except for these.
Quote
What is remarkable, is the writers over such a period of time all wrote in harmony
no they didn't...they had lots of different opinions...and even today's bible contradicts itself.
not to mention the books that didn't make it in the bible...and have been lost...fortunately we have the dead sea scrolls and others that they have found so we can have originals that the RCC didn't bastardize according to their own doctrines and self political motivations.
THe RCC DID change the books...they altered the meaning in translation to agree with Constintine's belief. then King James wanted a bible..and all his translators altered the bible according to HIS beliefs.
For example, the whole idea of purgatory, is in the apocrypha. so you take out the apocrypha, and **** NO purgatory.
THIS is ABOVE and beyond simple translating...
Quote
To wit, the Bible is the ONLY book God (YHWH) ever inspired men to write as his scribes.
first of all, why would God only write 'one book'?? why wouldn't GOd speak to many? over time???
and the bible isn't really a 'book' its a bunch of letters the RCC picked out...Nicene councel...picked them out. and anyone who disagreed with them, was ousted.
It wasn't GOD who called them a heretic. it was the RCC.
Also, we are missing HUGE chunks of Jesus's life...what did he do in the middle?? surely if God thought jesus was all that we would know more details about jesus.
The trinity is another RCC idea....its their way of saying Jesus IS God without saying they are polytheist.
OK and now for a question for ya..
you said tithing was only for the first century...can you give me a source for that please..
Thanks iris!
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Reply Answer #4:
Hi *****
First, Actually the Bible only seems to contradict itself, but when one really digs deep in, he/she quickly starts to see that what seems to be contradictions really are not. I have written several articles on this that you will find at the following:
[1] Discourse On Apparent Bible Contradictions and Divine Inspiration:
religioustruths.proboards59.com/i....63888325&page=1
[2] Why Sweat Apparent Bible Contradictions:
religioustruths.proboards59.com/i....read=1192642220
[3] Let's Have Reality in Translation:
religioustruths.proboards59.com/i....read=1163888709
[4] Apparent Contradictions in the Bible Compared To Real Ones In The Quran and the Book of Mormon:
religioustruths.proboards59.com/i....read=1163888925
[5] Series Apparent Bible Contradictions vs. Real Contradictions in the Quran:
religioustruths.proboards59.com/i....read=1168221950
Second, Now let's look at the reality with respect the books that did not make it, the aprocypha, the RCC attempt to mislead, and a book that truly did not make it - my discovery:
Discourse on a Lost Book of the Bible:
INTRODUCTION:
There have been many claims for lost books of the Bible, but in reality all but one of these claims is just plain spurious. What is usually being referred to are books that were not divinely inspired nor legitimate, but not actually lost. These will be dealt with in three sections, (1) The Aprocypha or deuterocanonical books, (2) The external books actually quoted in the Bible by inspired writers, (3) History books that some count as part of the Aprocypha, i.e., the 4 Books of Maccabees, the strangest case of all!
But there actually is one lost book, although obviously very short, that we do NOT have today, and I call it 4 th. John.
THE APROCYPHA OR DEUTERCANONICAL BOOKS:
First, let's consider what they are as defined by the Columbia Encyclopedia, sixth edition, by Columbia University Press. This encyclopedia defines the Apocrypha as, "(pk´rf) (KEY) [Gr.,=hidden things], term signifying a collection of early Jewish writings excluded from the canon of the Hebrew scriptures. It is not clear why the term was chosen." In reality they were nothing but uninspired writings, many purporting to be written by other than who was actually their author, or basically illegitimate and lacking credence. In fact, the real author of only one of the Apocrypha is actually known. Some religions, unfortunately, have included some of the Apocrypha in their Bibles, but even these were few in number. A list of most of the Apocrypha follows:
1 Clement, 1st Apocalypse of James, 2 Clement, 2nd Apocalypse of James, 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, Acts of Andrew, Acts of Apollonius, Acts of Carpus, Acts of John,Acts of Paul, Acts of Perpetua and Felicitas, Acts of Peter, Acts of Peter and the Twelve, Acts of Pilate, Acts of the Apostles, Acts of Thomas, Additions to the Book of Esther, Anonymous Anti-Montanist. Anti-Marcionite Prologues, Apelles, Apocalypse of John, Apocalypse of Peter, Apocryphon of John, Apollonius, Apology of Aristides, Aristo of Pella, Ascension of Isaiah, Athenagoras of Athens, Authoritative Teaching, Bardesanes, Baruch, Basilides, Eel and the Dragon, Book of Elchasai, Book of Thomas the Contender, Books of Jeu, Caius, Celsus, Christian Sibyllines, Claudius Apollinaris, Clement of Alexandria, Colossians, Coptic Apocalypse of Paul, Coptic Apocalypse of Peter, Dialogue of the Savior, Diatessaron, Didache, Didascalia, Dionysius of Corinth, Discourse on the Eighth and Ninth, Dura-Europos Gospel Harmony, Ecclesiasticus, or the Wisdom of Jesus the Son of Sirach, Egerton Gospel, Epiphanes On Righteousness, Epistle of Barnabas, Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus, Epistula Apostolorum, Excerpts of Theodotus, Fayyum Fragment, Fifth and Sixth Books of Esra, Fronto, Galen, Gospel of Judas, Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Peter, Gospel of Philip, Gospel of the Ebionite, Gospel of the Egyptians, Gospel of the Hebrews, Gospel of the Nazoreans, Gospel of the Savior, Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Truth, Hegesippus, Heracleon, Hippolytus of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Infancy Gospel of James, Infancy Gospel of Thomas, Inscription of Abercius, Irenaeus of Lyons, Isidore, Judith, Julius Cassianus, Justin Martyr, Kerygmata Petrou, Letter from Vienna and Lyons, Letter of Jeremiah, Letter of Peter to Philip, Lost Sayings Gospel Q, Lucian of Samosata, Mara Bar Serapion, Marcion, Marcus Aurelius, Martyrdom of Polycarp, Maximus of Jerusalem, Melchizedek, Melito of Sardis, Muratorian Canon, Naassene Fragment, Octavius of Minucius Felix, Odes of Solomon, Ophite Diagrams, Origen, Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel, Oxyrhynchus 840 Gospel, Pantaenus, Papias, Passion Narrative, Passion of the Scillitan Martyrs , Philostratus, Pistis Sophia, Pliny the Younger, Polycarp to the Philippians, Polycrates of Ephesus, Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Jews, Prayer of Manasseh, Preaching of Peter, Ptolemy, Quadratus of Athens, Rhodon, Secret Book of James, Secret Mark, Serapion of Antioch, Shepherd of Hermas, Signs Gospel, Sophia of Jesus Christ, Suetonius, Susanna, Tacitus, Tatian's Address to the Greeks, The Additions to the Book of Daniel, Tertullian, Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, Theophilus of Antioch, Theophilus of Caesarea, Tobit, Traditions of Matthias, Treatise on the Resurrection, Trimorphic Protennoia, Valentinus, Victor I, Wisdom of Solomon, etc.
As can be seen many of these none illegitimate books try to give themselves credence by closely mimicking the names of actual legitimate canonical books of the Bible. These books are often called the pseudepigrapha? The term is a transliteration of the Greek plural noun that literally means "with false superscription". According to Webster's Third New International Dictionary (p. 1830), the term can be defined as, "spurious works purporting to emanate from biblical characters". The Random House Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language defines the term as, "Certain writings (other than the canonical books and the Apocrypha) professing to be Biblical in character, but not considered canonical or inspired. These are NOT lost books, just NOT legitimate books of Bible cannon.
THE EXTERNAL BOOKS QUOTED IN THE BIBLE:
There are many external books quoted by inspired Bible writers as references. Many are, "not aware that the Old Testament authors depended upon other writings as their sources which they freely admit. Among these are: the Book of the Wars of Yahweh (Num. 21:14), the Book of the Jashar (Josh 10:13; 2 Sam. 1:18), the Book of the Acts of Solomon (1 Ki 14:19; 2 Chr 33:18), the Book of the Annals of the Kings of Judah (1 Ki 14:29, 15:7), the Annals of Samuel the Seer (1 Chr 29:29), the History of Nathan the Prophet (2 Chr 9:29), the Annals of Shemaiah the Prophet and Iddo the Seer (2 Chr. 12:15), the Annals of Jehu the Son of Hanani (2 Chr. 20:34), and others. Some teach that Moses compiled the Book of Genesis from other writings that surely had to have been handed down and preserved by his forefathers. Genesis can be broken down into eleven separate history books, each being separated by colophons at the conclusion of the books. This is known to have been a popular style for such ancient writings. ...According to this theory we have eleven separate books having the following authors: Adam, Noah, and eight other authors which Moses merely compiled into one book. [source= Ronald G. Fanter Cutting Edge Ministries].
One of these books is still existent today, the Book of Jashar or as it is sometimes called the Book of the Just, and another, the Book of the Wars of Yahweh, is actually thought my most scholars to actually be the Book of Jashar. The Book of Jashar is quite interesting, but one must be careful in obtaining a copy as there are counterfeit books masquerading as the Book of Jashar which are not. Also, there is a counterfeit Book of the Wars of Yahweh which is of course a fake since as previously said, this book is thought to just be another name for the Book of Jashar.
THE 4 BOOKS OF MACCABEES:
This is by far the strangest case of all. The 4 Books of Maccabees are ranked by many as part of the Apocrypha; however, they should be ranked as history books of the 1 st. and 2 nd. Century roughly before the incarnation of our leader and savior, Jesus (Yeshua) Christ. Very strange is the fact that the Catholic church accepted only two of them into their Canon of Bible Books; whereas, there are four of them. The Greek Orthodox, however, accepted three of them, and only the Cathars accepted the fourth. Strange to say the least, but none should have been accepted as canonical as they are history books, and one would NOT THINK of accepting H. G. Wells, 'Outline of History," into the Bible cannon; we are getting into the absurd. However, they make excellent reading as history books that fill in the history of these two centuries.
THE REAL LOST BOOK OF 4 JOHN:
However as testified to in the Bible there is a book that is totally legitimate having been written by none other than the Apostle John as a letter to a congregation just as were The First Epistle of John, The Second Epistle of John, and The Third Epistle of John. It is the lost Fourth Epistle of John referred to in The Third Epistle of John that the Revised Standard Version states at 3 John 9, "have written something to the church; but Diot'rephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge my authority." (Revised Standard Version; RSV).
Let's look at this text in context in the Douay Rheims Catholic Bible, 3 John 9-14, and get a better understanding of the circumstances that existed at the time that the Apostle John wrote this letter (epistle):
9 I had written perhaps to the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, doth not receive us. 10 11 Dearly beloved, follow not that which is evil: but that which is good. He that doth good is of God: he that doth evil hath not seen God. 12 To Demetrius, testimony is given by all, and by the truth itself: yea and we also give testimony. And thou knowest that our testimony is true. 13 I had many things to write unto thee: but I would not by ink and pen write to thee. 14 But I hope speedily to see thee: and we will speak mouth to mouth. Peace be to thee. Our friends salute thee. Salute the friends by name.
Let's also look at this text in context in the Good News Translation, 3 John 9-14:
I wrote a short letter to the church; but Diotrephes, who likes to be their leader, will not pay any attention to what I say. 10 When I come, then, I will bring up everything he has done: the terrible things he says about us and the lies he tells! But that is not enough for him; he will not receive the Christians when they come, and even stops those who want to receive them and tries to drive them out of the church! 11 My dear friend, do not imitate what is bad, but imitate what is good. Whoever does good belongs to God; whoever does what is bad has not seen God. 12 Everyone speaks well of Demetrius; truth itself speaks well of him. And we add our testimony, and you know that what we say is true. 13 I have so much to tell you, but I do not want to do it with pen and ink. 14 I hope to see you soon, and then we will talk personally. 15 Peace be with you.
This letter was directed to the church (congregation) of which Gaius was a member as shown at 3 John 1-2, "To my dear Gaius, whom I truly love. 2 My dear friend, I pray that everything may go well with you and that you may be in good health-as I know you are well in spirit." (the Good News Translation; GNT), but due to Diotrephes it failed in its purpose since Diotrephes loved to be pre-eminent in the congregation and not a servant as a minister should be according to Matthew 20:25-26, " But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 26 Not so shall it be among you: but whosoever would become great among you shall be your minister;" (American Standard Version; ASV). The facts presented are affirmed in 100s of different translations. A. Plummer, in the book, "The Epistles of Saint John," made the following comment, "Perhaps the meaning is that Diotrephes meant to make his Church independent; hitherto it had been governed by Saint John from Ephesus, but Diotrephes wished to make it autonomous to his own glorification." [source="The Epistles of Saint John," by A. Plummer, Cambridge: The University Press, 1886, page 149].
As all can see, this is really a lost book that should be in our Bible, but is not due to the fact that it was not preserved. Whereas, all the so called other lost books of the Bible are not lost; they exist, but have no place in the Word of God (YHWH), the Bible, as they were NOT written under divine inspiration, hence not legitimate with respect belonging to Bible canon.
Third, You said, "For example, the whole idea of purgatory, is in the apocrypha. so you take out the apocrypha, and **** NO purgatory." Now go to the following to learn the detailed proof against the false doctrine of purgatory:
Discourse on Purgatory: at,
religioustruths.proboards59.com/i....read=1169240774
Fourth, You said, "THe RCC DID change the books...they altered the meaning in translation to agree with Constintine's belief. then King James wanted a bible..and all his translators altered the bible according to HIS beliefs."
You are correct on what the RCC did and I have written several articles on it that you should read:
[1] Councils of the Catholic Church and Bible Canon:
jude3.proboards92.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=ch&thread=250
[2] A Second Look Including The Thinking of Jerome:
religioustruths.proboards59.com/i....63276574&page=1
[3] Bible Canon - A Challenging Addition On The Subject of The Apocrypha:
religioustruths.proboards59.com/i....63276825&page=1
With respect the (Authorized King James Bible; AV), go to:
Learn About the Authorized King James Bible: (by another) at,
religioustruths.proboards59.com/i....read=1166482897
Fifth, You said, "Also, we are missing HUGE chunks of Jesus's life...what did he do in the middle?? surely if God thought jesus was all that we would know more details about jesus."
Yes, the Bible only records part of his life and there is a scripture (but I forget where it is) that says the whole would cover many books. But a lot is explained in my very long documentary (actually a small book):
DOCUMENTARY ON OUR SAVIOR JESUS (YESHUA):
religioustruths.proboards59.com/i....63804424&page=1
Sixth, You said, "The trinity is another RCC idea....its their way of saying Jesus IS God without saying they are polytheist." And you are correct. In addition to the book, "When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome," by Richard E. Rubenstein, I mentioned in my last post to you, but there are many others such as, The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity's Self-Inflicted Wound, by Sir Anthony Buzzard; Jesus Was Not a Trinitarian by Anthony Buzzard; A Plausible Alternative to Christian Orthodoxy, May 28, 2005, By Stephen Triesch; Jesus-God or the Son of God? A Comparison of the Arguments (Paperback), by Brian Holt; Divine Truth or Human Tradition?: A Reconsiderat... by Patrick Navas; Etc.
Seventh, With respect Tithing, here is an exert from a Bible dictionary:
"These two accounts, however, are merely instances of voluntarily giving one tenth. There is no record to the effect that Abraham or Jacob commanded their descendants to follow such examples, thereby establishing a religious practice, custom, or law. It would have been superfluous for Jacob, if already under a compulsory obligation to pay tithes, to vow to do so, as he did. It is therefore evident that the tithing arrangement was not a custom or a law among the early Hebrews. It was instituted with the inauguration of the Law covenant, not before.
Mosaic Tithing Laws. Jehovah gave Israel tithing laws for definite purposes, apparently involving the use of two tenths of their annual income, except during the Sabbath years, when no tithe was paid, since no income was anticipated. (Le 25:1-12) However, some scholars believe there was only one tithe. Such tithes were in addition to the firstfruits they were under obligation to offer to Jehovah.-Ex 23:19; 34:26.
The first tithe, consisting of one tenth of the produce of the land and fruit trees and (evidently of the increase) of the herds and flocks, was brought to the sanctuary and given to the Levites, since they had no inheritance in the land but were devoted to the service of the sanctuary. (Le 27:30-32; Nu 18:21, 24) The Levites, in turn, gave a tenth of what they received to the Aaronic priesthood for their support.-Nu 18:25-29.
Evidently the grain was threshed and the fruit of the vine and of the olive tree was converted into wine and oil before tithing. (Nu 18:27, 30; Ne 10:37) If an Israelite wished to give money instead of this produce, he could do so, provided he added an additional fifth to the valuation. (Le 27:31) But it was different with the flock and the herd. As the animals came out of the pen one by one through a gate, the owner stood by the gate with a rod and marked every tenth one as the tithe, without examination or selection.-Le 27:32, 33.
It seems there was an additional tithe, a second tenth, set aside each year for purposes other than the direct support of the Levitical priesthood, though the Levites shared in it. Normally it was used and enjoyed in large measure by the Israelite family when assembling together at the national festivals. In cases where the distance to Jerusalem was too great for the convenient transport of this tithe, then the produce was converted into money and this, in turn, was used in Jerusalem for the household's sustenance and enjoyment during the holy convention there. (De 12:4-7, 11, 17, 18; 14:22-27) Then, at the end of every third and sixth years of the seven-year sabbatical cycle, this tithe, instead of being used to defray expenses at the national assemblies, was set aside for the Levites, alien residents, widows, and fatherless boys in the local community.-De 14:28, 29; 26:12.
These tithing laws binding on Israel were not excessive. Nor should it be overlooked that God promised to prosper Israel by opening "the floodgates of the heavens" if his tithing laws were obeyed. (Mal 3:10; De 28:1, 2, 11-14) When the people became negligent as to tithing, the priesthood suffered, for the priests and Levites were forced to spend their time in secular work and consequently neglected their ministerial services. (Ne 13:10) Such unfaithfulness tended to bring about a decline in true worship. Sadly, when the ten tribes fell away to calf worship, they used the tithe to support that false religion. (Am 4:4, 5) On the other hand, when Israel was faithful to Jehovah and was under the rule of righteous administrators, tithing for the Levites was restored, and true to Jehovah's promise, there were no shortages.-2Ch 31:4-12; Ne 10:37, 38; 12:44; 13:11-13.
Under the Law there was no stated penalty to be applied to a person failing to tithe. Jehovah placed all under a strong moral obligation to provide the tithe; at the end of the three-year tithing cycle, they were required to confess before him that the tithe had been paid in full. (De 26:12-15) Anything wrongfully withheld was viewed as something stolen from God.-Mal 3:7-9.
By the first century C.E., the Jewish religious leaders, particularly among the scribes and Pharisees, were making a sanctimonious show of tithing and other outward works, in a form of worship, but their hearts were far removed from God. (Mt 15:1-9) Jesus reproved them for their selfish, hypocritical attitude, calling attention to their being meticulous to give a tenth even of "the mint and the dill and the cumin"-something they should have done-yet at the same time disregarding "the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness." (Mt 23:23; Lu 11:42) By way of illustration, Jesus contrasted the Pharisee who boastfully felt self-righteous because of his own works of fasting and tithing, with the tax collector who, though considered as nothing by the Pharisee, humbled himself, confessed his sins to God, and begged for divine mercy.-Lu 18:9-14.
No Tithing for Christians. At no time were first-century Christians commanded to pay tithes. The primary purpose of the tithing arrangement under the Law had been to support Israel's temple and priesthood; consequently the obligation to pay tithes would cease when that Mosaic Law covenant came to an end as fulfilled, through Christ's death on the torture stake. (Eph 2:15; Col 2:13, 14) It is true that Levitical priests continued serving at the temple in Jerusalem until it was destroyed in 70 C.E., but Christians from and after 33 C.E. became part of a new spiritual priesthood that was not supported by tithes.-Ro 6:14; Heb 7:12; 1Pe 2:9.
As Christians, they were encouraged to give support to the Christian ministry both by their own ministerial activity and by material contributions. Instead of giving fixed, specified amounts to defray congregational expenses, they were to contribute "according to what a person has," giving "as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." (2Co 8:12; 9:7) They were encouraged to follow the principle: "Let the older men who preside in a fine way be reckoned worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard in speaking and teaching. For the scripture says: 'You must not muzzle a bull when it threshes out the grain'; also: 'The workman is worthy of his wages.'" (1Ti 5:17, 18) However, the apostle Paul set an example in seeking to avoid bringing an undue financial burden on the congregation.-Ac 18:3; 1Th 2:9." [source - Insight on the Scriptures, Vol. II]
Boy getting all that information and sources together was a real workout.
To learn more, check out the following:
[1] religioustruths.proboards59.com/ An Educational Referral Forum
[2] www.network54.com/Forum/403209 A Forum Devoted to Exposing The False Religion of Islam
[3] jude3.proboards92.com/ A Free-Speech Forum For All
[4] www.freewebs.com/iris_the_preacher My web site.
Your Friend in Christ Iris89