Post by iris89 on Sept 13, 2006 19:04:09 GMT -5
Religious Research and Its Products
INTRODUCTION:
First, the purpose of research can be any of the following four and/or a combination of them:
[1] To Explain or Instruct, i.e., requires providing further information to make a matter clear.
[2] To Convince, i.e., calls for giving reasons showing why a thing is so along with evidence presentation.
[3] To Refute or Show Error, i.e., involves a knowledge of both sides of the issue along with a careful analysis of evidence.
[4] To Motivate. i.e., involves moving others to action and/or an attempt to do so.
Usually the purpose of research is a combination of these.
Usually religious research involves first examining the context such as what do the items put forth or statement put forth conjure up, and the development of a hypothesis to be either proven correct and/or incorrect.
A STATEMENT IS MADE BY ANOTHER AND WILL BE TESTED:
In this case one member of Islam quotes Sura 19:33 which is per three different versions/translations of the Quran is as follows;
017.033 AL-ISRA (ISRA', THE NIGHT JOURNEY, CHILDREN OF ISRAEL)
Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law). [YUSUFALI]
PICKTHAL: And slay not the life which Allah hath forbidden save with right. Whoso is slain wrongfully, We have given power unto his heir, but let him not commit excess in slaying. Lo! he will be helped. [PICKTHAL]
And do not kill any one whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause, and whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority, so let him not exceed the just limits in slaying; surely he is aided. [SHAKIR]
He also said, from a Hadith [he failed to mention which Hadith, but was from Muslim b. al-Hajjaj] as follows:
Book 019, Number 4294: [ Muslim b. al-Hajjaj]
It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them. When you lay siege to a fort and the besieged appeal to you for protection in the name of Allah and His Prophet, do not accord to them the guarantee of Allah and His Prophet, but accord to them your own guarantee and the guarantee of your companions for it is a lesser sin that the security given by you or your companions be disregarded than that the security granted in the name of Allah and His Prophet be violated When you besiege a fort and the besieged want you to let them out in accordance with Allah's Command, do not let them come out in accordance with His Command, but do so at your (own) command, for you do not know whether or not you will be able to carry out Allah's behest with regard to them.
Now let's examine both of these with respect their intent or purpose:
First, the Quran is saying in effect that wrongful slaying is wrong, and the heir has the right to go kill the one committing the slaying.
Second, The Muslim b. al-Hajjaj [Hadith] is saying when boiled down to its essence, that a military commander [Muslim] should be good to those with him, and fight against those who do not believe in Allah. Also, to make 'holy war' and to pillage, but not to mutilate or break pledges or to kill children. But to take spoil.
NOW WHAT IS TO BE TESTED? THE HYPOTHESIS:
First, The validity of the two sources, i.e., the Quran and the concept of Hadith.
Second, Adherence of Muhammad (pbuh) and members of Islam to either and/or both of these.
VALIDITY OF THE QURAN AND THE VARIOUS HADITHS:
First, Let's check the real source of much of the Quran and not the legend that it came from an Angel. The Bible which is NOT the product of one committee or strongman is the source of much of the data used by Muhammad (pbuh) in writing the Quran.
The Bible has over 40 individual writers who wrote under divine inspiration/guidance putting the thoughts of God (YHWH) into the words of men much as transcribing secretaries today taking transcription and then later typing it out. In other words one real author, God (YHWH), and many scribes each of whom wrote in his own style over a period of approximately 1,600 years. All of what people call or consider inconsistencies are really not such, but most often just a problem of translation and/or understanding, i.e., lack of understanding of what the original writer writing in his own language and culture meant/said in his original writing. What is remarkable, is the writers over such a period of time all wrote in harmony when even most posters on threads on this forum can not even stay on track or subject over a period of a few days and/or weeks at most with the original subject of the thread. This fact of harmony over a period so great as to almost stagger the imagination shows that it had one guiding force or author who divinely inspired its writers as humans of their own volition can not keep on track over short periods of time.
To wit, the Bible is the ONLY book God (YHWH) ever inspired men to write as his scribes. In other words, God is its author and men only put his thoughts given to them by divine inspiration into their own words, the words of men. Not only that, all the other writers of later so called religious guidance books borrowed from it and made changes in accord with their strong man or so called prophet. Take the example of Joseph Smith who borrowed from it to write the Book of Mormon, but failed to give credit or source to the Bible and twisted some borrowed things into bizarre distortions. Other examples are of course the bizarre writings of David Koresh the Prophet of the Branch Dividians of Waco, Texas; and the Quran, etc.
So as can be seen, the Quran is nothing but a distorted knockoff of the Bible and can only be correct when its author, Muhammad (pbuh) correctly copied which in many cases he failed to do so.
Second, Let's consider the Hadith, or more correctly the many Hadith's, and what it is. An encyclopedia says, <<" Hadith (Arabic: ??????? ? translit: al-h?adith) are traditions relating to the words and deeds of the prophet Muhammad. Hadith collections are regarded as important tools for determining the Sunnah, or Muslim way of life, by all traditional schools of jurisprudence.
The Arabic plural is ah?adith (Arabic: ??????? ?). In English academic usage, hadith is often both singular and plural.
Muslim scholars classify hadith relating to Muhammad as follows:
* What Muhammad said (???) (qawl)
* What Muhammad did (???) (fi'l)
* What Muhammad approved (?????) (taqrir) in others' actions
There are also hadith relating to the words and deeds of the companions, but they may not have the same weight as those about Muhammad.
Western scholars note that there is a great overlap between the records of early Islamic traditions. Accounts of early Islam are also to be found in:
* sira (stories, especially biographies of Muhammad)
* tafsir (commentary on the Qur'an)
* fiqh (juristic reasoning)
Some of these accounts are also found as hadith; some aren't. For a Western historian, these are all simply historical sources; for the Muslim scholar, hadith have a special status. They cite sura 7:157:
Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the Law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper. (Yusuf Ali translation)
They take this and other Qur'anic verses to require Muslims to follow authentic hadith. However, a small number of "Quran-only" Muslims disagree with this view and interpret these verses differently; they argue that the hadith are of human creation and have no authority." [source - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia]>>.
So we can see the Hadith consist of tradition and the purported words of Muhammad (pbuh), and lack fact. This is further shown by the fact that there is NOT one Hadith, but many used by various flavors of Islam. Let's look at the principle ones in brief:
Sunni's use the following:
Six major Hadith collections, used by Sunni's includes:
[1] Sahih Bukhari, collected by al-Bukhari (d. 870), included 7275 hadiths
[2] Sahih Muslim, collected by Muslim b. al-Hajjaj (d. 875), included 9200
[3] Sunan Abi Da'ud, collected by Abu Da'ud (d. 888)
[4] Sunan al-Tirmidhi, collected by al-Tirmidhi (d. 892)
[5] Sunan al-Sughra, collected by al-Nasa'i (d. 915)
[6] Sunan Ibn Maja, collected by Ibn Maja (d. 886).
Shia's use the following:
[1] Usul al-Kafi
[2] Al-Istibsaar
[3] Al-Tahzeeb
[4] Mun La YahDuruHu al-Faqeeh
Ibadi Islam uses the following:
Ibadi Islam (found mainly in the Arabian kingdom of Oman) accepts many Sunni hadith, while rejecting others, and accepts some hadith not accepted by Sunnis.
Ibadis is al-Jami'i al-Sahih, also called Musnad al-Rabi ibn Habib, as rearranged by Abu Ya'qub Yusuf b. Ibrahim al-Warijlani. A large proportion of its narrations are via Jabir ibn Zaid or Abu Yaqub; most are reported by Sunnis, while several are not. [resource - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia].
Now the validity of the various Hadiths which are completely different writings and NOT mere versions/ translations must be questioned. Why?
[1] The various Hadiths are NOT in agreement with each other, and the various flavors of Islam recognize different ones as being valid. For example, the Shi'a Hadiths actually contradict much contained in the Hadiths recognized by the Sunni so how can any reasonable person believe these writings that sometimes contradict each other and which various flavors of Islam recognize different ones?
[2] The Bible clearly shows that the traditions of man stand in the way of true godly devotion. Let's look at some scriptural evidence:
Mark 7:8-13, "For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." (Authorized King James Bible; AV).
Colossians 2:8, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." (AV).
Matthew 15:2, "Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. Mt 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? Mt 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.(AV).
From these scriptures and Hadith contradictions, Hadith to Hadith, we can see tradition is NOT a reason to transgress the word of the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael, and of course should not be relied on. We all know men over time do NOT accurately remember what was originally said, so anything in any Hadith is of course NOT an accurate reproduction.
So the two sources used have been shown to lack validity and NOT to even have harmony within. Now let's deal with the other hypothesis, the adherence of Muhammad (pbuh) and members of Islam to either and/or both of these.
See Page 2
INTRODUCTION:
First, the purpose of research can be any of the following four and/or a combination of them:
[1] To Explain or Instruct, i.e., requires providing further information to make a matter clear.
[2] To Convince, i.e., calls for giving reasons showing why a thing is so along with evidence presentation.
[3] To Refute or Show Error, i.e., involves a knowledge of both sides of the issue along with a careful analysis of evidence.
[4] To Motivate. i.e., involves moving others to action and/or an attempt to do so.
Usually the purpose of research is a combination of these.
Usually religious research involves first examining the context such as what do the items put forth or statement put forth conjure up, and the development of a hypothesis to be either proven correct and/or incorrect.
A STATEMENT IS MADE BY ANOTHER AND WILL BE TESTED:
In this case one member of Islam quotes Sura 19:33 which is per three different versions/translations of the Quran is as follows;
017.033 AL-ISRA (ISRA', THE NIGHT JOURNEY, CHILDREN OF ISRAEL)
Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law). [YUSUFALI]
PICKTHAL: And slay not the life which Allah hath forbidden save with right. Whoso is slain wrongfully, We have given power unto his heir, but let him not commit excess in slaying. Lo! he will be helped. [PICKTHAL]
And do not kill any one whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause, and whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority, so let him not exceed the just limits in slaying; surely he is aided. [SHAKIR]
He also said, from a Hadith [he failed to mention which Hadith, but was from Muslim b. al-Hajjaj] as follows:
Book 019, Number 4294: [ Muslim b. al-Hajjaj]
It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them. When you lay siege to a fort and the besieged appeal to you for protection in the name of Allah and His Prophet, do not accord to them the guarantee of Allah and His Prophet, but accord to them your own guarantee and the guarantee of your companions for it is a lesser sin that the security given by you or your companions be disregarded than that the security granted in the name of Allah and His Prophet be violated When you besiege a fort and the besieged want you to let them out in accordance with Allah's Command, do not let them come out in accordance with His Command, but do so at your (own) command, for you do not know whether or not you will be able to carry out Allah's behest with regard to them.
Now let's examine both of these with respect their intent or purpose:
First, the Quran is saying in effect that wrongful slaying is wrong, and the heir has the right to go kill the one committing the slaying.
Second, The Muslim b. al-Hajjaj [Hadith] is saying when boiled down to its essence, that a military commander [Muslim] should be good to those with him, and fight against those who do not believe in Allah. Also, to make 'holy war' and to pillage, but not to mutilate or break pledges or to kill children. But to take spoil.
NOW WHAT IS TO BE TESTED? THE HYPOTHESIS:
First, The validity of the two sources, i.e., the Quran and the concept of Hadith.
Second, Adherence of Muhammad (pbuh) and members of Islam to either and/or both of these.
VALIDITY OF THE QURAN AND THE VARIOUS HADITHS:
First, Let's check the real source of much of the Quran and not the legend that it came from an Angel. The Bible which is NOT the product of one committee or strongman is the source of much of the data used by Muhammad (pbuh) in writing the Quran.
The Bible has over 40 individual writers who wrote under divine inspiration/guidance putting the thoughts of God (YHWH) into the words of men much as transcribing secretaries today taking transcription and then later typing it out. In other words one real author, God (YHWH), and many scribes each of whom wrote in his own style over a period of approximately 1,600 years. All of what people call or consider inconsistencies are really not such, but most often just a problem of translation and/or understanding, i.e., lack of understanding of what the original writer writing in his own language and culture meant/said in his original writing. What is remarkable, is the writers over such a period of time all wrote in harmony when even most posters on threads on this forum can not even stay on track or subject over a period of a few days and/or weeks at most with the original subject of the thread. This fact of harmony over a period so great as to almost stagger the imagination shows that it had one guiding force or author who divinely inspired its writers as humans of their own volition can not keep on track over short periods of time.
To wit, the Bible is the ONLY book God (YHWH) ever inspired men to write as his scribes. In other words, God is its author and men only put his thoughts given to them by divine inspiration into their own words, the words of men. Not only that, all the other writers of later so called religious guidance books borrowed from it and made changes in accord with their strong man or so called prophet. Take the example of Joseph Smith who borrowed from it to write the Book of Mormon, but failed to give credit or source to the Bible and twisted some borrowed things into bizarre distortions. Other examples are of course the bizarre writings of David Koresh the Prophet of the Branch Dividians of Waco, Texas; and the Quran, etc.
So as can be seen, the Quran is nothing but a distorted knockoff of the Bible and can only be correct when its author, Muhammad (pbuh) correctly copied which in many cases he failed to do so.
Second, Let's consider the Hadith, or more correctly the many Hadith's, and what it is. An encyclopedia says, <<" Hadith (Arabic: ??????? ? translit: al-h?adith) are traditions relating to the words and deeds of the prophet Muhammad. Hadith collections are regarded as important tools for determining the Sunnah, or Muslim way of life, by all traditional schools of jurisprudence.
The Arabic plural is ah?adith (Arabic: ??????? ?). In English academic usage, hadith is often both singular and plural.
Muslim scholars classify hadith relating to Muhammad as follows:
* What Muhammad said (???) (qawl)
* What Muhammad did (???) (fi'l)
* What Muhammad approved (?????) (taqrir) in others' actions
There are also hadith relating to the words and deeds of the companions, but they may not have the same weight as those about Muhammad.
Western scholars note that there is a great overlap between the records of early Islamic traditions. Accounts of early Islam are also to be found in:
* sira (stories, especially biographies of Muhammad)
* tafsir (commentary on the Qur'an)
* fiqh (juristic reasoning)
Some of these accounts are also found as hadith; some aren't. For a Western historian, these are all simply historical sources; for the Muslim scholar, hadith have a special status. They cite sura 7:157:
Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the Law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper. (Yusuf Ali translation)
They take this and other Qur'anic verses to require Muslims to follow authentic hadith. However, a small number of "Quran-only" Muslims disagree with this view and interpret these verses differently; they argue that the hadith are of human creation and have no authority." [source - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia]>>.
So we can see the Hadith consist of tradition and the purported words of Muhammad (pbuh), and lack fact. This is further shown by the fact that there is NOT one Hadith, but many used by various flavors of Islam. Let's look at the principle ones in brief:
Sunni's use the following:
Six major Hadith collections, used by Sunni's includes:
[1] Sahih Bukhari, collected by al-Bukhari (d. 870), included 7275 hadiths
[2] Sahih Muslim, collected by Muslim b. al-Hajjaj (d. 875), included 9200
[3] Sunan Abi Da'ud, collected by Abu Da'ud (d. 888)
[4] Sunan al-Tirmidhi, collected by al-Tirmidhi (d. 892)
[5] Sunan al-Sughra, collected by al-Nasa'i (d. 915)
[6] Sunan Ibn Maja, collected by Ibn Maja (d. 886).
Shia's use the following:
[1] Usul al-Kafi
[2] Al-Istibsaar
[3] Al-Tahzeeb
[4] Mun La YahDuruHu al-Faqeeh
Ibadi Islam uses the following:
Ibadi Islam (found mainly in the Arabian kingdom of Oman) accepts many Sunni hadith, while rejecting others, and accepts some hadith not accepted by Sunnis.
Ibadis is al-Jami'i al-Sahih, also called Musnad al-Rabi ibn Habib, as rearranged by Abu Ya'qub Yusuf b. Ibrahim al-Warijlani. A large proportion of its narrations are via Jabir ibn Zaid or Abu Yaqub; most are reported by Sunnis, while several are not. [resource - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia].
Now the validity of the various Hadiths which are completely different writings and NOT mere versions/ translations must be questioned. Why?
[1] The various Hadiths are NOT in agreement with each other, and the various flavors of Islam recognize different ones as being valid. For example, the Shi'a Hadiths actually contradict much contained in the Hadiths recognized by the Sunni so how can any reasonable person believe these writings that sometimes contradict each other and which various flavors of Islam recognize different ones?
[2] The Bible clearly shows that the traditions of man stand in the way of true godly devotion. Let's look at some scriptural evidence:
Mark 7:8-13, "For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." (Authorized King James Bible; AV).
Colossians 2:8, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." (AV).
Matthew 15:2, "Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. Mt 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? Mt 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.(AV).
From these scriptures and Hadith contradictions, Hadith to Hadith, we can see tradition is NOT a reason to transgress the word of the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael, and of course should not be relied on. We all know men over time do NOT accurately remember what was originally said, so anything in any Hadith is of course NOT an accurate reproduction.
So the two sources used have been shown to lack validity and NOT to even have harmony within. Now let's deal with the other hypothesis, the adherence of Muhammad (pbuh) and members of Islam to either and/or both of these.
See Page 2